Christianity

[CalmReflect]

Hello,

What do you think of Jesus being the Son of God?

He sent an angel to help me believe while I was an atheist. I saw signs that it was the truth after this. I used to not be able to believe the bible until after this, then when I started reading it; It seemed different and real because my heart was open to it. Jesus is the Son of God and the way to eternal happiness in heaven with God. People need to accept him as their savior because we sin.He helped me by sending people to talk to me about him and showing me signs. There is no evidence supporting Wicca being the truth, however the Bible had several authors and was written over a period of many years and the New Testament showed how the Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled through Jesus. This was documented history, not made up stories.



http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/authenticity.html is a good site that gives evidence for Christianity being the truth. (not my site)

Thank you.

John 14:6 -

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (NIV)

If you're unsure, you can pray to Jesus Christ and ask him to open your heart to him and for him to give you faith! (it's good to keep trying!!)

[Abracadabra]

I think you should follow what calls to you. :ylflower:

I personally don't feel that it's productive to go around suggesting that what calls to other people has no evidence. Unless, of course, you enjoy arguing about such things.

If you do find yourself in an argument with someone, just keep in mind that you were the one who had cast the first stone by suggesting that their belief system "has no evidence".

So if they question the evidence of yours in return could you blame them?

I think not.

Blessed Be. :cheers:

[Gwenyfur]

I attended church last weekend for an event my daughter said was important to her...

I had to restrain my chuckles as the preacher went on a rant in his sermon about witnessing to others because all their arguments boiled down to "that's what I believe"...

essentially every religious argument boils down to that one statement...even Christianity.

If that path works for you great...happy for ya...
but I don't need it, want it, or desire it.

Happy Witch,
Gwenyfur
(former christian and church pianist)

[sleeplessghost]

Not quite sure why your here...

Please don't try to proselytize, it is very rude to go to a website devoted to a different faith and tell them that they are wrong. I do not go to christian websites and tell them that their faith is wrong or invalid.

Also to answer your question: Don't believe it as I do not believe in your god, therefor he could not have a son.

[Robertus_]

Umm.... Not quite sure why you're here.

It seems like you're trying to proselytize. That's not a good idea here.

And while I'm glad you discovered your spirituality I have plenty of issues about the Bible to consider it as being a revelation from God.

Good Luck.

[Lunacie]

Spot on Gwenyfur! With Christianity it's taught "whosoever believes in me (Jesus) shall not perish." Belief is belief, no matter what you believe in. Christianity also talks about faith, not evidence. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."


CalmReflect, I'm happy for you that you that you've found something to believe in. So have I. Just because I'm traveling on a different road than you are doesn't mean that I'm lost.

[Alexandria]

Well first, hello and welcome to the forum. I do wonder, however, if you'll actually be back for conversation, or if this is basically a drive by conversion attempt, and you won't actually be back.

What do you think of Jesus being the Son of God?

To answer simply, if I believed this, I'd probably be a Christian. Since I'm not, well... obvious answer.

He sent an angel to help me believe while I was an atheist. I saw signs that it was the truth after this.

I'm happy for you, it's always nice when someone finds a faith that makes them feel fulfilled and allows them to grow spiritually. However, you must understand that you're not the only one who has had personal experiences such as this. There are conversion stories from all around the world - all with different religions. The people here have their own stories and experiences.

As for the Bible, I have studied it and Christianity in the past. I am unconvinced by the external evidence for the Bible that I have seen. Most of it breaks down to circular logic - the Bible is true because it says it is. Not really convincing enough for me...

To be clear, I do understand that Christians are called to spread their religion. I get that, it's just, these sorts of attempts feel like the worst kind of spam. No real interest in the people you're preaching to... and hey, no one likes spam.

[Abracadabra]

What do you think of Jesus being the Son of God?


Come to think of it, since you did ask this question I would be interesting in sharing my thoughts on this. Not intended as an argument, but rather just to share my answer to this question.

Hang on, because my thoughts will not be brief. I'll try to organize them into manageable "chapters" with boldfaced titles:

Here we go:

My Background with Christianity in Brief

Just to give you a sense of where I'm coming from in terms of Christianity I think it's proper to describe my experience with it to some extent.

I born and raised into the religion. My entire extended family were all Christians. Free Methodist Protestants. In fact, several of my uncles were pastors. I 'believed' in the religion simply because my parents, family, and church were all telling me that it's true.

I actually took an interest in Jesus and gave myself over to God. I accepted Jesus as my savior with open arms. :b1:

I might add, that this was not a profound change in my lifestyle, because even before I had done that I had always felt in harmony with "God" on an innate level. So it wasn't like I finally decided to start obeying God when I had previously been rejecting God.

In any case, being around preachers I realized that they were not always in agreement with each other concerning their interpretations of scriptures. Not that they would argue with each other violently, but they would indeed sit around in a very friendly way voicing quite different views concerning different issues and questions.

Watching this take place before me I decided to learn of the "Truth" of the bible. After all, I was taught that God will guide anyone to his "Truth" if they simply ask with a sincere heart and read the Bible. So that's what I did.

I read the Bible not as a skeptic, but as a believer who was simply looking to understand the "Real Truth". The more I read it, the more questions I had. Not seeking to become a skeptic at all. I simply kept running into more unanswered questions, contradictions, and things that appeared to me to be utterly absurd.

Well, I had to be honest with myself. Does reading the Bible with an open heart after having asked God for guidance lead to answers? No, it doesn't. In my case it lead to deeper and deeper questions, and recognitions of blatant contradictions that I could see no possible resolution for.

After quite a few years of sincerely trying to make 'excuses' for the Bible I finally had to face the "Real Truth". Could I explain the Bible to another person in a way that would clear up these questions? The truth? No I could not. Could I explain the Bible to anyone else in a way that I feel should compel them to believe it? No I could not.

Then I had to sincerely ask myself the following question:

If I can't make sense of the Bible in a meaningful way and understand it well enough to explain it to other people, is there truly any reason I should be accepting it as truth?

My honest answer had to be, "No".

At that point I started to view the Bible as possibly being nothing more than superstitious rumors. Suddenly the whole thing made absolute perfect sense.

I have never been able to view it as anything other than this since.

Concerning the Torah, or Old Testament

I have huge problems concerning the entire Old Testament claims. When I look at the Old Testament with a truly open mind along with all I know about surrounding cultures and other world religions one conclusion becomes blatantly obvious to me, and it is this:

The Old Testament is based very much along the lines of a Zeus-like Godhead, who is appeased by blood sacrifices and deals with his problems using violence, punishments, and threats of punishments.

Does it truly make any sense for me to place my "faith" in the idea that the creator of humanity is basically the psychological twin of a God like Zeus that has clearly been recognized to be nothing more than a mythological man-made fantasy?

Also, what's the chances that the "Real Creator" of the universe would just coincidentally be so "Zeus-like". (complete with being appeased by blood sacrifices and the whole shebang?)

A far more reasonable conclusion for me is to just recognize that Hebrew Mythology isn't all that different from Greek Mythology.

Prophecies? What Prophecies?

Please don't attempt to answer these questions for me. I've already answered them. There are no credible prophecies in the Bible IMHO. I can easily explain away everything that is being proclaimed to have been a prophecy.

I also agree with the Jews that Jesus could not possibly have been the prophesied messiah associated with King David. Those prophecies proclaimed that the messiah would be handed the throne of King David by God himself, and become the rightful King of the Jews. No such prophecy ever came true for the man named Jesus.

Therefore it doesn't even make any sense to think that Jesus could have been the prophecies in the ancient Hebrew mythology.

So if I were going to go with the Bible I'd have to become a Jew anyway and not a Christian.

But that would be absurd for me, because I have already recognized the Torah (or Old Testament) to be nothing more than Zeus-like myths.

So who was Jesus then?

Yes, I personally believe that there probably was a guy named "Jesus" who actually lived in those days. I believe that he probably did reject all the immoral things that were being taught by the Torah. I believe he probably did call the Pharisees hypocrites. And I believe he probably was crucified by those Pharisees and nailed to pole or cross.

I don't believe that he was born of a virgin. I don't believe that he was sent by the Zeus-like God of the Old Testament to be a sacrifical lamb of salvation. And I don't believe that he (along with a multitude of saints) were raised from their graves.

What do I believe?

I believe that Jesus was probably a pantheistic-minded Jewish Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva. Yes, that's a mouthful of a title, but it pretty much sums it up for me. Mahayana Buddhism was at it's peak at that same point in history and as far as I can tell many of the teachings of Jesus are in line with what I would expect a Mahayana Buddhist to teach. Especially if he was a Bodhisattva which was also quite popular in Mahayana Buddhism in those days.

Jesus Taught against the Immoral Teachings of the Torah

The Torah had God asking people to judge others and stone sinners to death. (you can't very well stone a "sinner" to death unless you have first "judged" them to be a sinner). So the Old Testament had God commanding people to judge each other and kill those who are judged to be sinners.

Jesus rejected that immoral practice and taught that people should not judge others and that they shouldn't stone others to death either.

The Torah had God directing people to seek revenge. "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", and condoning the seeking of revenge.

Jesus rejected that immoral practice and taught people to forgive each other and to not seek revenge (i.e. Turn the other cheek)

Jesus taught that "He and the Father are One". That's the pantheistic view and precisely what I would expect a Mahayana Buddhist to say.

Jesus also pointed out that he could even find this written in the Torah and he pointed to the verse in the Torah that says, "Have I not said, ye are gods?"

Notice also that he did this when being charged with blaspheme because he has just said that he and the father are one.

Well, duh?

Would it make any sense for an actual demigod (i.e. the son of God through a moral woman) to defend his claim to being the "Son of God" by pointing out that everyone is equally a "Child of God".

He's basically saying, "How can you charge me with blaspheme when I'm not saying anything more than YOU could say?"

Jesus was clearly a pantheist, IMHO.

So what about the New Testament?

If Jesus wasn't the son of God how to I explain all the outrageous claims being made in the New Testament.

Well, to begin with if Jesus wasn't the son of God (and that was my conclusion) then there is absolutely no reason why I should trust the writings of the New Testament to hold verbatim truths.

As far as I'm concerned the New Testament is nothing but superstitious rumors about a mortal man who taught against the immoral teachings of the Old Testament, tried to get people to realize that they are all children of God equally, and was crucified for his views (and for having called the Pharisees hypocrites)

I see no reason to give the New Testament "Verbatim Merit" and therefore I have no need to explain away these superstious rumors in terms of verbatim quotes. Especially quotes that are being attributed to Jesus.

Another "TRUTH" is that there does not exist a single solitary word anywhere in the New Testament that was actually written by this man named Jesus. All the New Testament consists of are hearsay rumors that could indeed be grossly inaccurate at best, and outright lies at worse.

My Final Conclusion Concerning Christianity

The Old Testament has no more validity than Greek Mythology in terms of it's claims of divine interventions, etc.

Jesus was most likely a moral man just like the rest of us. Probably a pantheistic-minded Jewish Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva.

The New Testament is nothing more than superstitious rumors (at best), or the outright underhanded work of angry Pharisees who were attempting to nail Jesus onto the Torah after they had nailed him to a pole. A book that Jesus himself apparently didn't even agree with, IMHO.

The bottom line for me?

I don't believe in a Zeus-like God who will cast me into hell if I don't accept the blood sacrifice of his only begotten son in order to appease his wrath.

I like Jesus far better as having simply been a misunderstood Mahayana Buddhist who tried to reject the ignorance of the Torah.

That's my honest sincere view on the religion.

My apologies to anyone who might somehow feel offended by my personal views on this religion.

No offense was ever intended.

I'm just answering the question that was put to me as honestly I can.

i.e. "What do you think of Jesus being the Son of God?"

I personally don' t believe it. :cheers:

[StacyStar]

I think everyone is being more than gracious. I wonder what would happen if someone went onto a Christian Forum and started attempting to convert them to Wicca?

I personally put more stock in the teachings of Dr.Suess than I do the teachings of The Bible.

As far as Jesus goes, I do believe he is somebodies son. I also firmly believe if he walked the earth today he would be a long haired, hippy liberal and shunned by most main stream Christians and churches. That is just my personal opinion.

[Gwenyfur]

I think everyone is being more than gracious. I wonder what would happen if someone went onto a Christian Forum and started attempting to convert them to Wicca?


Having been on a few I can answer that: "Instant Permanent Ban"

an no...I wasn't trying to convert people to wicca...
just trying to educate them on the stupid crap they spew about what we do as witches LOL

[Pinkfluff]

I believe that we are all sons and daughters of the Gods. The ancient writings of Northern Europe that are important to most Heathens support this. Nothing in the bible is verified history, with the exception of reference to historical events from the time and place just as ancient writings from other cultures have. It makes sense to me that one ought to look first to the spiritual traditions of their own ancestry. So if you're not from the middle east why follow Christianity?

I don't know about you (speaking to the OP) but we Pagans do not need to be saved. The Gods know that we have flaws, and They offer Themselves as our role models that we may better ourselves.

[Vigdisdotter]

Hello,

What do you think of Jesus being the Son of God?

I think a very common Jewish concept was taken out of context and made into something it was never meant to be.

In Jewish philosophy ALL Jews are the sons and daughters of the Hebrew god. There is nothing particularly special or spectacular about this claim.

[crow]

Hello,

What do you think of Jesus being the Son of God?
Sounds about right, just as much as him also being the Son of the Goddess.

He sent an angel to help me believe while I was an atheist. I saw signs that it was the truth after this.
I called the archangels Michael, Raphael, Gabriel and Auriel in a recent ritual. If this was the same day, I wonder if it was one of the same ones?

I used to not be able to believe the bible until after this, then when I started reading it; It seemed different and real because my heart was open to it.
I too have read the bible, multiple times even. It certainly helped me to understand the intolerance espoused by the more unsavory followers of the religion, as it lays such matters out rather thick. Although, in a lot of cases, words were not translated very well from the ancient Hebrew and Greek with the KJV, causing me to hold fundamentalists in high suspicion because they don't even really understand what was said to begin with other than this mis-translation.

To be fair, I am equally skeptical with other religions, even my own. Many people incorrectly assume they are carrying on ancient pagan traditions with modern witchcraft, which in many cases (particularly Wicca) is just not true. They are modern inventions, based upon and inspired by mythos of ancient civilizations and their traditions.

Jesus is the Son of God and the way to eternal happiness in heaven with God. People need to accept him as their savior because we sin.
Hey, go with it. I hope you will enjoy it. I would rather have a little more freedom to explore the true reality of the cosmos than be pigeonholed into one area with a bunch of people just like me for all eternity. Talk about BORING!

As for sin, I would believe that we do not agree on what constitutes "sin". so there isn't much sense even talking about that subject really.

He helped me by sending people to talk to me about him and showing me signs.
The Goddess and God called me directly, back to them, from Christianity (which really wasn't working for me so well to be quite honest).

There is no evidence supporting Wicca being the truth, however the Bible had several authors and was written over a period of many years and the New Testament showed how the Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled through Jesus. This was documented history, not made up stories.
I have experienced the truth, personally. I have seen it. Wicca is much closer to this truth than the "Christianity" that I know of from reading the bible and listening to other so-called Christians. I do not "believe", I "know". Big difference.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/authenticity.html is a good site that gives evidence for Christianity being the truth. (not my site)
Many modern scientists are finding that religion/mysticism/spirituality is more real than many would have believed earlier. As time wears on, I am sure many things previously thought "mysteries" or "superstition" will be found to have scientific merit.

Thank you.
No, thank you, and you're welcome.

John 14:6 -

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (NIV)
That is unless he is the same, in which case he is saying the only way to himself is through himself, which is kind of obvious really. I can talk to God, or any facet of him, whether it is Jesus, or Pan, or even my next door neighbor, and none of them require a translator. Although, if my neighbor did not speak English, I might want one.

If you're unsure, you can pray to Jesus Christ and ask him to open your heart to him and for him to give you faith! (it's good to keep trying!!)
Been there, done that. He is a very good spirit. The sayings attributed to him in the Bible are not all 100% accurate however. I am quite convinced of this, but it is just my own opinion really. So be careful with your spiteful Jesus aspects, Jesus may not appreciate that.

I have faith. Thanks for asking.:signthankspin:

[Mab]

I also believe that we are the sons and daughters descendent from the God and Goddess, whatever their names we call them by. I do believe Jesus existed, but only as a man and a prophet, such as Mohammed, Buddha and many others too numerous to mention.

I was raised Roman Catholic and then changed to Presbyterian because of the lies I was taught as a child. Even later around the age of 16, I became a non Christian, but never had a name to call it, though I studied many different religions. Back then I was afraid not to follow the crowd and go to Sunday school and pretend to pray. I have opened my heart out as a child and Jesus never spoke to me. I finally fell upon Wicca a little over 2 years ago and have been very content, comfortable and happy since then. And I'm an old crone and am loving this stage of my life now.

I think it is great for anyone to believe whatever they want as long as they harm none and don't try to convert others. Look at the American Indians, when white man came, they were taught the Christian way, they had there own beliefs for many more years than the Christians gave them credit for. They were never harmful to each other and did not kill for killing sake, for self defense or to feed themselves of the buffalo and then they wasted nothing. They believe what you put in this earth comes back to you. They do not try to convert anyone.

Believe what you will, but don't come here and try to convert those who have left for their own reasons, and many are valid and good reasons. Just my opinion, from this old crone... Mab

[Abracadabra]

I called the archangels Michael, Raphael, Gabriel and Auriel in a recent ritual. If this was the same day, I wonder if it was one of the same ones?

Kewl. :hippy:

I call those four archangels in every circle ritual I have. :)

I associate them with the four consciousnesses as follows:

North: Ariel
East: Raphael
South: Micheal
West: Gabriel

In my pantheon I envision Ariel and Gabriel as feminine and Raphael and Micheal as masculine.

I also make the following associations:

Ariel - archangel of the altar and governor of the elements
Raphael - archangel of well-being
Michael - archangel of protection
Gabriel - archangel of love

Not meant to define them as such. Just sharing how I personally interact with these psychic spiritual entities.

I don't associate these archangels with Christianity or the ancient Hebrews though. As far as I can tell these archangels were recognized in many myths and legends that were common in those times. They naturally found their way into the writings of the ancient Hebrews simply because people tend to write about common knowledge.

[crow]

I don't associate these archangels with Christianity or the ancient Hebrews though. As far as I can tell these archangels were recognized in many myths and legends that were common in those times. They naturally found their way into the writings of the ancient Hebrews simply because people tend to write about common knowledge.
To the surprise of many Christians, angels predate even early Judaism.

This made me think about Asherah for some reason. One thing many Christians fail to realize is that the God they worship originally ruled alongside a Goddess as well. So by the same logic that they believe they are the way to God, because it is the same God as the Jews, that same God shares divinity with the Goddess Asherah.

That fact would make things awkward for many Christians I am sure, and is probably the reason women are suppressed to such a submissive role, even a distasteful role (the whole Rib/Apple thing). They need to cover that up.:lol:

[sleeplessghost]

Calmreflect seems to be what a seagull... they drop their shit and leave.

[Pinkfluff]

Calmreflect seems to be what a seagull... they drop their shit and leave.

Makes you wonder how many other forums he does this on. Not that I actually want to know... Textbook example of a troll.

[Rose]

"So if you're not from the middle east why follow Christianity?"

Because people are not aware of it, it was imposed on them for so long and they thing it's normal to do that.
People do not think,and the little that do thing can't do much for others.

[Pinkfluff]

"So if you're not from the middle east why follow Christianity?"

Because people are not aware of it, it was imposed on them for so long and they thing it's normal to do that.
People do not think,and the little that do thing can't do much for others.

Indeed. I ask that question in the hopes that people will stop to think about it for even half a second.

[Rose]

The best thing to do is not to burden yourself with that.Because in the end every single person has its own truth and view of right. :) It's in the angle of seeing things. Nobody is right nor wrong. We all need to accept and let live.

[Abracadabra]

Calmreflect seems to be what a seagull... they drop their shit and leave.

Well, he/she was busted with my very first response to the thread.

I pointed out that he/she is the one casting the first stone at other people's faith by making the accusation that their faith has no evidence.

So Calmrefect was dead in the water right there in terms of any serious conversations at that point.

His/her accusations could be thrown right back in his/her own face with no room to scream 'foul'.

Calmreflect made the ultimate error that far too many proselytizers of Christianity all too often make. He/she cast the first stone.

Tsk tsk.

[Nevah]

CalmReflect -

No, thank you, I am not interested.

[CalmReflect]

Actually I still visit, so you are wrong about me "trolling". It's a little silly to get offended about me making a post about Christianity when this is the Paths section and Christianity is a religious path. I have nothing against Wicca but no one provided me with any sound evidence for why Wicca is real. There are no documented historical writings the way there is for Christianity. I saw signs about Christianity being the only truth and signs that I should share that so I did.

If you're having trouble believing in it; you can pray to Jesus to open your heart. People do evil things..some do terrible things to others. We sin. To go to heaven, Jesus has to cleanse it of us.They atoned for sin in the old testament with animal sacrifices, and in the new testament Jesus was the sacrifice for people's sin as he is the Son of God (a part of the God trinity)
Bye!

[Lunacie]

Actually I still visit, so you are wrong about me "trolling". It's a little silly to get offended about me making a post about Christianity when this is the Paths section and Christianity is a religious path. I have nothing against Wicca but no one provided me with any sound evidence for why Wicca is real. There are no documented historical writings the way there is for Christianity. I saw signs about Christianity being the only truth and signs that I should share that so I did.

If you're having trouble believing in it; you can pray to Jesus to open your heart. People do evil things..some do terrible things to others. We sin. To go to heaven, Jesus has to cleanse it of us.They atoned for sin in the old testament with animal sacrifices, and in the new testament Jesus was the sacrifice for people's sin as he is the Son of God (a part of the God trinity)
Bye!

That's because we don't have to prove anything to you.

Documented historical writing never proved anything to me about Christianity. I spent years begging Jehovah and Jesus and the Holy Ghost to have a personal relationship with me, and I never felt their presence.

So I decided I didn't need religion, but I was interested in metaphysics and magic. The first time I cast a psychic shield of protection from negativity, the Goddess appeared to me and spoke to me.

That was all the proof I needed. That doesn't prove anything to anyone else, but why should I have to? I don't.

[CelestialRain]

Actually I still visit, so you are wrong about me "trolling". It's a little silly to get offended about me making a post about Christianity when this is the Paths section and Christianity is a religious path. I have nothing against Wicca but no one provided me with any sound evidence for why Wicca is real. There are no documented historical writings the way there is for Christianity. I saw signs about Christianity being the only truth and signs that I should share that so I did.

If you're having trouble believing in it; you can pray to Jesus to open your heart. People do evil things..some do terrible things to others. We sin. To go to heaven, Jesus has to cleanse it of us.They atoned for sin in the old testament with animal sacrifices, and in the new testament Jesus was the sacrifice for people's sin as he is the Son of God (a part of the God trinity)
Bye!

Please, do not go on a forum of a specific religion and bring your own onto there and start spreading it, don't go on a forum crusade. You seem like a nice person so respect our beliefs as we respect yours, I come from a Christian background as well but each person in the world follows whatever they love the most: so respect that as Jesus respected those who committed sins, and died for them regardless. :)

[Mab]

I respect your belief in Christianity, however, documented proof. Well it was written by man and men make mistakes. There was no one around when supposedly God created Adam and Even and all the begats. So who wrote all that stuff? You've got the old and new testaments, why?

If you read on, there is so much violence in the Bible. All the wars against other religions. It just goes on that there are still more scrolls and instead of proving Christianity, it is beginning to lean toward Gods and Goddesses.

There are so many conflicting writings and many scrolls that are being interpreted into different languages and I know translating German to English loses a lot in the interpretation, so I can imagine how much has been lost over the years.

So, I think that the Bible is no more accurate than any other interpretations of research done about any other religions such as Buddhism, Wicca, Judaism, etc., etc. My opinion... Mab

[crow]

For some reason, George Carlin's skit about religion comes to mind. Seeing as how this link is to George Carlin, you should be aware that it contains some words that aren't suited for many young ears, or for bosses in many cases.:lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

[Abracadabra]

Actually I still visit, so you are wrong about me "trolling". It's a little silly to get offended about me making a post about Christianity when this is the Paths section and Christianity is a religious path.


It's not silly at all. You made a direct accusation that there exists no evidence for Wicca, whilst claiming that there is evidence for Christianity.

That is basically an attack against Wicca whilst proclaiming support for Christianity.

So you are being extremely hypocritical here. And no, it's not silly for people to take offense to such extreme arrogance on your part. You are basically proclaiming that they are stupid and you are smart?

How so? By proclaiming that you can see that Wicca is false and that Christianity is true, and they can't.

That's the epitome of arrogance.

I have nothing against Wicca but no one provided me with any sound evidence for why Wicca is real.

No one is trying to convince you to believe in Wicca.

You are the only proselytizer here.

There are no documented historical writings the way there is for Christianity.

The very idea that you consider that to be important reveals your own ignorance. There is nothing in the Christian biblical cannon that provides any evidence whatsoever for the outrageous supernatural claims that it makes.

As far as containing references to actual historical events, that is totally unimpressive. Greek mythology does the same thing. By your standards that would mean that there is evidence for Zeus and company.

There is nothing in the biblical cannon that provides any evidence at all for the claims of supernatural miracles and divine interventions that those stories claim.

So you are actually incorrect to state that there exist documented evidence for the supernatural beliefs associated with Christianity.

That is actually your own misunderstanding of things right there.

I saw signs about Christianity being the only truth and signs that I should share that so I did.

No, that's a lie. You didn't come here to share anything. You came here to renounce Wicca as having no evidence, and argue that Christianity does have evidence.

So now your insincerity has been exposed as well.



If you're having trouble believing in it; you can pray to Jesus to open your heart.

I used to be a Christian. I not only prayed to Jesus with an open heart, but I had also accepted him as my lord and savior.

It was a totally empty experience for me. I never felt any presence of Jesus come into my life or change my life in anyway. So I have proof that the claim made in the Bible about Jesus are indeed false. He doesn't keep his WORD, and therefore the stories are necessarily false.

People do evil things..some do terrible things to others.

I don't. And I never have. So this most certainly doesn't apply to me. I'm very sorry to hear that you feel that it applies to you.


We sin. To go to heaven, Jesus has to cleanse it of us.They atoned for sin in the old testament with animal sacrifices, and in the new testament Jesus was the sacrifice for people's sin as he is the Son of God (a part of the God trinity)

The whole superstition of gods who are appeased by blood sacrifices where common throughout the Mediterranean region. Zeus too, was appeased by blood sacrifices.

I personally see no reason to believe that a supposedly all-wise creator of the universe would be appeased by blood sacrifices.

Moreover, what kind of a sick demented God would send his only begotten son to be butchered on a pole just so he could forgiven people of their so-called "sins"?

As far as I can see, not only is there no evidence to these outrageous myths, but they are so utterly outrageous and demented that I could never believe on faith that they represent the behavior and ideas of a supposedly all-wise creator.

Personally, I see no wisdom in Christianity at all.

IMHO, any God who is so sick and demented that he can't forgive people unless someone has been nailed to a pole would be so evil that he would be a demon himself.

So you are basically asking us to become demon worshipers.

~~~~

Keep in mind that you came knocking at our door proclaiming that our religion has no evidence. And you are clearly trying to convert us into devil worshipers.

I didn't come knocking on your door.

If you want to believe that you are a horrible person who is unworthy of eternal life and the only way you can achieve it is through 'grace' offered to you by a God who had his own son butchered on a pole to pay for your disgusting personality.

Well, by all means, go ahead and believe that. :cheers:

But please, don't insult me by suggesting that I'm unworthy of the respect of a divine creator.

Even if I were going to believe in your demented sick God, my response to his offer would be as follows:

Dear God,

I'm am sorry that you had your son butchered on a pole. I certainly hope that you didn't do that on my behalf. You should have asked me first. I would have told you not to do it. I will gladly suffer the fate of spiritual death for my own petty "sins". I do not condone having anyone take my place for me. If you are open to suggestions on how to better commune and deal with the problems you are having with your creation I am more than willing to offer you free consultation. I can set you up with a really happy universe if you like. Your negative approach to solving problems through violence is never going to pan out.

With some slight changes to your personality you can have a great creation. :artist:


Bye!

That's about the only thing you've said that I agree with. :cheers:

[Nevah]

If you really wanted to say something great, you could have said the things this man said:

James Clement Taylor (http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/christian.htm)


I like his attitude.

(and he uses "documented evidence" from the Bible.)

[Pandora13x]

I have nothing against Wicca but no one provided me with any sound evidence for why Wicca is real. There are no documented historical writings the way there is for Christianity. I saw signs about Christianity being the only truth and signs that I should share that so I did.

I think once something gets to the point where you can provide sound evidence of it's reality to those outside of yourself it stops being a religion and becomes plain old fact. I've yet to find any evidence of the sort you mention for any religion or spiritual path, and I don't see it as a requirement for my own path, though it helps that my own path affects only myself, and I'm more than prepared to accept the consequences of being wrong, so it doesn't make much difference to me either way :]

If you're having trouble believing in it; you can pray to Jesus to open your heart.

I'm all set :] My heart and mind are fairly open to whatever truths wish to present themselves, but the moral and ethical codes of Christianity don't really mesh well with my own personal moral and ethical codes, so I see no reason to ask any deity or religious figure to push me towards that particular path (or any path really). It's great that you've found a path that is spiritually fulfilling for you though, I have as well, though my path differs from yours (and occasionally involves atheism, which I find to be no less fulfilling than the moments on my path when I am a believer).

People do evil things..some do terrible things to others. We sin. To go to heaven, Jesus has to cleanse it of us.They atoned for sin in the old testament with animal sacrifices, and in the new testament Jesus was the sacrifice for people's sin as he is the Son of God (a part of the God trinity)
Bye!

Yes, people do terrible things to each other and the rest of the world, but I don't think I've ever done anything particularly evil or even all that terrible myself. For sure I've made mistakes though, and sometimes those mistakes have hurt the people I care about, though usually not seriously.

In those instances I take responsibility for my actions and for the pain I have caused others (even if what I did was with the best intent, and for the most part had very positive consequences, every action is going to have some unanticipated consequences, and some of those consequences will be negative. I take responsibility for those consequences regardless) and do my best to rectify the situation and heal those hurts myself. No divine assistance required.

Mind you, it might not get me into heaven, but eternal punishment or reward has never been all that important to me. I'm more concerned with this life right now, and making the world a better place with my time in it. The whole "in the world but not of the world" bit never really worked for me. Not when this life and this world might be all I have :]

[Abracadabra]

If you really wanted to say something great, you could have said the things this man said:

James Clement Taylor (http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/christian.htm)


I like his attitude.

(and he uses "documented evidence" from the Bible.)


From that article:


There are many Christians today who believe that anyone who is not a Christian is doomed to an eternity of suffering in hell. Any decent person, believing this, would be compelled to try to save as many people from this fate as possible. But is this belief correct? Jesus Christ, having noted the faith and righteousness of a Roman centurion, a Pagan, proclaimed:

"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:10-12)

If we accept these words as true, and surely we should, then it is clear that heaven will contain many who are not Christians, and hell will contain many who are! Clearly, throughout the Gospels, Jesus Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a refusal to judge others:

I totally agree with this man. The Christians who use Jesus to support religious bigotry are actually spitting in the face of Jesus, IMHO.

There is no excuse for it.

[Alexandria]

It's a little silly to get offended about me making a post about Christianity when this is the Paths section and Christianity is a religious path. I have nothing against Wicca but no one provided me with any sound evidence for why Wicca is real. There are no documented historical writings the way there is for Christianity. I saw signs about Christianity being the only truth and signs that I should share that so I did.

There's nothing wrong with making a thread for discussion on Christianity, but that's really not what you're doing here - this is flat out proselytization. If that's your sole aim, then fine, but again... put yourself in our shoes. Would you be convinced by such a post?

Wiccans don't proselytize, for the most part. It's not up to Wiccans to prove their religion to be true, because they have no interest in doing so. You are on your own path, and that's your own business. Many Wiccans and other pagans see no need to disrupt what you're doing, as long as you're being respectful of us as well.

I understand that Christians are called to share their faith, I really do, but some ways just don't work. (Not to mention, come on, how many people do you really think do not know about Christianity? Many people here were Christian before they converted!)

Again, you've found your path, seen your signs... but how many others are out there with similar stories, for all kinds of religions? How many people here have their own stories and callings?


If you're having trouble believing in it; you can pray to Jesus to open your heart.

Again, do you know how many here were once Christian? How many people have tried to do this? How many people go no answer - how many people were answered by other Gods?

This is the problem... you don't seem to be here to actually discuss. If someone came up to you and started singing the praises of Allah, without first getting to know you, and didn't seem to have any interest in doing this... more interest in preaching than actual discussion, would you be more inclined to listen or to them or to brush them off?

[Abracadabra]

This is the problem... you don't seem to be here to actually discuss.

That's the bottom line right there.

Calmreflect has absolutely no interest in "sharing" anything. I'm quite sure that he/she would be totally uninterested in a Wiccan's spiritual experiences.

Calmreflect would necessarily need to brush off such experiences as either being totally invalid, or proclaim them to be the work of the Christian Satan attempting to deceive people.

Calmreflect had already made the charge that here is no evidence for Wicca and suggested that the evidence for Christianity is supported by doctrine.

Calmreflect has already PREACHED to people that they only need to pray to Jesus to be "saved" and obtain a gift of eternal life.

So Calmreflect has absolutely no interest in discussing anything. The sole purpose is to abuse this forum, and use this thread as a pulpit to proselytize and preach Christianity with absolutely no intent of even remotely considering views that are outside of Calmreflect's envangelistic agenda.

I have neither sympathy nor respect for such arrogant proselytizing. And therefore I have absolutely no problem responding to this thread with absolutely no sympathy.

If Calmreflect truly has found peace and spiritual meaning through Christianity, that's GREAT!

Truly it is.

But if that is going to cause Calmreflect to start arrogantly proselyting the religion to people who have found their peace and spiritual truths in other religions and spiritual philosophies, then Calmreflect has found no peace at all.

All he/she has found is a means of generating animosity toward anyone and everyone who doesn't believe in the Hebrew view of God.

And that's truly sad.

I agree with the observations made by James Clement Taylor that Nevah pointed to.

There is no reason to even believe that Jesus himself would support such ignorant proselytizing and evangelizing in his name. '

So I personally see this kind of proselytizing and evangelizing as actually being "anti-Christ-like" behavior anyway. Christianity, when used for this purpose actually becomes a religion that is "Anti-Christ".

So it does no one any good, not even the so-called "Christians" who preach it. Proselytizing is a negative process all the way around.

~~~~

Just as a final thought:

The very idea that mere mortal men would need to proselytize or evangelize to others for the purposes of helping other people find "salvation" is an oxymoron in its own right.

All that does is proclaim their distrust in God to have set up a fair system where righteous people will automatically be saved, and unrighteous people won't be saved.

In short, the very idea that someone might not be "saved" because they hadn't been evangelized to, implies that this God allows decent people to fall through the cracks of his judgmental system which is supposed to be righteous and fair.

So the very idea of proselyting and evangelizing people in the hopes of saving them flies in the very idea that God himself had designed a fair system that cannot fail.

No truly decent person could possibly be cast into hell by accident. That would imply an inefficient and unfair God.

So the whole idea that evangelism would be required by such a God is an oxymoronic idea to begin with.

Look into Karma, it's a far more perfect system. :cheers:

If God is perfect, She probably employs a system of Karma, and doesn't rely on evangelists to save people.

[Abracadabra]

He sent an angel to help me believe while I was an atheist.

I just realized that you were an atheist before you began to believe in Christianity.

So you are probably thinking that either Christianity is true, or atheism is true, and you probably haven't given a lot of thought to other possible ideas of spirituality.

I think this is true of a lot of Christians. They have become convinced that either Christianity is true, or there is no spiritual essence to reality.

They probably haven't truly given much though to other possibilities. Such as the idea that we are all eternal spiritual entities that neither came into being when we were born, nor will cease to exist when we die.

After all, why should it be one-way?

Why should it be that the birth of our physical body constitutes the birth of our spiritual essence, yet the death of our physical body does not constitute the death of our spiritual essence?

A lot of spiritual people have come to realize that if there is indeed a spiritual essence to their reality, then this has always been true, even before they were born.

The idea of an eternal reincarnation actually makes more sense than the idea of being created at birth, and then having our eternal spiritual fate being judged by a being that is external to us.

Also, even if spiritual existence does begin in a physical form, it still makes more sense to believe that these spiritual beings will slowly evolve to become full-fledged spiritual beings in their own right over time.

Does the idea of a separate entity that is seeking to raise spiritual beings that are lesser than itself as some sort of pets or servants make any sense truly?

What would an all-powerful unlimited God have a need for lesser souls to serve him?

And in what way could such inferior souls "serve" him save for perhaps being a very minor form of entertainment that he would surely become bored with after a while.

The whole Abrahamic scenario makes no sense, IMHO.

Eastern Mystical spiritual philosophies certainly make far more sense.

I don't even think in terms of "evidence", since if we are to be honest with ourselves there is no convincing "evidence" to support any spiritual picture of reality beyond pure faith (other than perhaps personal psychic and intuitive experiences)

Thus rather than appealing to evidence, I prefer to look at what makes the most sense.

A Mystical view of life appears to make far more sense to me than a Zeus-like view of life where some jealous God is seeking eternal pets who can only get to him by accepting that he had his son nailed to a pole to pay for their sins.

Karma in general makes far more sense to me than a God who judges people to be 'sinners' for simply not believing in truly outrageous stories of a God who uses violent means to solve all his problems. (i.e. Requesting blood sacrifices to pay for sins, drowning out sinners, having his son nailed to a pole as the symbol of his love for humanity)

Ick.

I mean, truly. :hippy:

The mystical view of spirituality is far more inviting IMHO. :cheers:

[jdwoodschild]

There are no documented historical writings the way there is for Christianity.

"If you take [a copy of] the Christian Bible and put it out in the wind and the rain, soon the paper on which the words are printed will disintegrate and the words will be gone. Our bible IS the wind and the rain." Herbalist Carol McGrath as told to her by a Native-American woman

CR, Wiccans go out side and experience our "bible." Our "bible: comes to us in feelings, emotions, the love and life and we experience on a daily basis, from when we wake up in the morning to when we curl up to sleep at night. That to me is a more profound proof than words written down, edited, and controlled by man and have been used to by those in power to subjugate, control, abuse, and extort their fellow man.

I grew up in a Christian town (we had 4 churches within a 5 blocks of each other) and as a child I went to every church at one point or another. The kids who were nice to me during Sunday School and service were the same kids who bullied me, sexually harassed me, and mentally and emotionally scarred me all through out my schooling career every Monday through Friday, from Kindergarten to my Senior year. And they will all proclaim that they are "good Christians" and they went to Church every Sunday. Did that make them good people? No. I left the church and it's hollow promises as soon as I was old enough to realize what had been done in the name of the church and of God (the inquisition, the crusades, the toll to pay one's way into heaven, the destroying of learning and history countless of times), and I realized that I didn't want any associations with that. So I became a humanist who in my late teens became a Wiccan.

I've been to church with family members of mine, and I've always been able to feel "His" presence. We have a friendly relationship, He's there I'm here we kind of wave and acknowledge each other but respect each other's choices. He knows that that path isn't right for me, and I feel that he respects it. I also know what I feel when I do a ceremony, when I feel presences of nature and of the balance. And to be honest? His energy doesn't feel like it's apart of nature, like it's apart of the world, and to me it feels like it does when a person "creates" something with their energy and they give it so much that they give it a life of their own. That's what the Christian God to me feels like. Something that people over time have created and put so much energy into it has manifested into something of it's own.

__________________________________________________ ______


You came here to convert, not to discuss. You came here saying "This is what happened to me and you should do it too!" You came here telling us that our religion has no proof, but yours does. If you wanted to discuss, you would have came here saying "This is what happened to me, what happened to you guys? Were you ever part of the Church and what has been your experiences? Christianity has the Bible for proof for us, and to my knowledge Wicca doesn't have anything that is comparable for proof, but is there any? What is proof for you?" And that would have started a theological discussion, no one would have called you a Troll, and no one would be mad at you. You weren't respectful, you didn't ask any questions, and you weren't interested in actually starting a discussion.

That is the problem we are having with you and this thread. When you're ready to actually have a discussion, debate, talk, or anything along those lines, go ahead and post them. If you're here to just bash our beliefs and to try converting us to your "truths" then please just save yourself the hassle and leave us alone.

[Abracadabra]

"If you take [a copy of] the Christian Bible and put it out in the wind and the rain, soon the paper on which the words are printed will disintegrate and the words will be gone. Our bible IS the wind and the rain." Herbalist Carol McGrath as told to her by a Native-American woman

CR, Wiccans go out side and experience our "bible." Our "bible: comes to us in feelings, emotions, the love and life and we experience on a daily basis, from when we wake up in the morning to when we curl up to sleep at night. That to me is a more profound proof than words written down, edited, and controlled by man and have been used to by those in power to subjugate, control, abuse, and extort their fellow man.

I grew up in a Christian town (we had 4 churches within a 5 blocks of each other) and as a child I went to every church at one point or another. The kids who were nice to me during Sunday School and service were the same kids who bullied me, sexually harassed me, and mentally and emotionally scarred me all through out my schooling career every Monday through Friday, from Kindergarten to my Senior year. And they will all proclaim that they are "good Christians" and they went to Church every Sunday. Did that make them good people? No. I left the church and it's hollow promises as soon as I was old enough to realize what had been done in the name of the church and of God (the inquisition, the crusades, the toll to pay one's way into heaven, the destroying of learning and history countless of times), and I realized that I didn't want any associations with that. So I became a humanist who in my late teens became a Wiccan.

I've been to church with family members of mine, and I've always been able to feel "His" presence. We have a friendly relationship, He's there I'm here we kind of wave and acknowledge each other but respect each other's choices. He knows that that path isn't right for me, and I feel that he respects it. I also know what I feel when I do a ceremony, when I feel presences of nature and of the balance. And to be honest? His energy doesn't feel like it's apart of nature, like it's apart of the world, and to me it feels like it does when a person "creates" something with their energy and they give it so much that they give it a life of their own. That's what the Christian God to me feels like. Something that people over time have created and put so much energy into it has manifested into something of it's own.

__________________________________________________ ______


You came here to convert, not to discuss. You came here saying "This is what happened to me and you should do it too!" You came here telling us that our religion has no proof, but yours does. If you wanted to discuss, you would have came here saying "This is what happened to me, what happened to you guys? Were you ever part of the Church and what has been your experiences? Christianity has the Bible for proof for us, and to my knowledge Wicca doesn't have anything that is comparable for proof, but is there any? What is proof for you?" And that would have started a theological discussion, no one would have called you a Troll, and no one would be mad at you. You weren't respectful, you didn't ask any questions, and you weren't interested in actually starting a discussion.

That is the problem we are having with you and this thread. When you're ready to actually have a discussion, debate, talk, or anything along those lines, go ahead and post them. If you're here to just bash our beliefs and to try converting us to your "truths" then please just save yourself the hassle and leave us alone.

http://users.csonline.net/designer/ideas/clap.gif

[jdwoodschild]

lolol thank you Abracadabra I kind of went on a rant there >.< I have a low BS tolerance, and reading CR's second post kinda set it off.

[Gwenyfur]

"If you take [a copy of] the Christian Bible and put it out in the wind and the rain, soon the paper on which the words are printed will disintegrate and the words will be gone. Our bible IS the wind and the rain." Herbalist Carol McGrath as told to her by a Native-American woman

CR, Wiccans go out side and experience our "bible." Our "bible: comes to us in feelings, emotions, the love and life and we experience on a daily basis, from when we wake up in the morning to when we curl up to sleep at night. That to me is a more profound proof than words written down, edited, and controlled by man and have been used to by those in power to subjugate, control, abuse, and extort their fellow man.

I grew up in a Christian town (we had 4 churches within a 5 blocks of each other) and as a child I went to every church at one point or another. The kids who were nice to me during Sunday School and service were the same kids who bullied me, sexually harassed me, and mentally and emotionally scarred me all through out my schooling career every Monday through Friday, from Kindergarten to my Senior year. And they will all proclaim that they are "good Christians" and they went to Church every Sunday. Did that make them good people? No. I left the church and it's hollow promises as soon as I was old enough to realize what had been done in the name of the church and of God (the inquisition, the crusades, the toll to pay one's way into heaven, the destroying of learning and history countless of times), and I realized that I didn't want any associations with that. So I became a humanist who in my late teens became a Wiccan.

I've been to church with family members of mine, and I've always been able to feel "His" presence. We have a friendly relationship, He's there I'm here we kind of wave and acknowledge each other but respect each other's choices. He knows that that path isn't right for me, and I feel that he respects it. I also know what I feel when I do a ceremony, when I feel presences of nature and of the balance. And to be honest? His energy doesn't feel like it's apart of nature, like it's apart of the world, and to me it feels like it does when a person "creates" something with their energy and they give it so much that they give it a life of their own. That's what the Christian God to me feels like. Something that people over time have created and put so much energy into it has manifested into something of it's own.

__________________________________________________ ______


You came here to convert, not to discuss. You came here saying "This is what happened to me and you should do it too!" You came here telling us that our religion has no proof, but yours does. If you wanted to discuss, you would have came here saying "This is what happened to me, what happened to you guys? Were you ever part of the Church and what has been your experiences? Christianity has the Bible for proof for us, and to my knowledge Wicca doesn't have anything that is comparable for proof, but is there any? What is proof for you?" And that would have started a theological discussion, no one would have called you a Troll, and no one would be mad at you. You weren't respectful, you didn't ask any questions, and you weren't interested in actually starting a discussion.

That is the problem we are having with you and this thread. When you're ready to actually have a discussion, debate, talk, or anything along those lines, go ahead and post them. If you're here to just bash our beliefs and to try converting us to your "truths" then please just save yourself the hassle and leave us alone.


a thousand times this!!!
:thewave:

[sleeplessghost]

Actually I still visit, so you are wrong about me "trolling". Ah, so you have been passively sitting by and not trying to talk with us?(As of writing this you have two posts in total, so you are obviously disinterested in any other topic)It's a little silly to get offended about me making a post about Christianity when this is the Paths section and Christianity is a religious path. You are not here to discuss your path you are here to preach. Do you see many people in other places on the forum trying to convert others to their path? I have nothing against Wicca but no one provided me with any sound evidence for why Wicca is real. Is anyone trying to convert you to Wicca? If they are not then they are not trying to make a claim that would require evidence. There are no documented historical writings the way there is for Christianity. Please don't tell me that you are talking about Josephus, most Christian scholars agree that his works have been tampered with. If you are using biblical allusions to history please tell me why there are two different governors in Luke 2 and Matthew 2. I saw signs about Christianity being the only truth and signs that I should share that so I did. You have personal experiance which is a terrible way to present evidence of your claims to someone else. After all, if you accepted such things yourself you would follow every religion.
If you're having trouble believing in it; you can pray to Jesus to open your heart. You might not realise this, but at one time I wanted to be a preacher. I have been saved but in my deconversion process I commited the one unforgivable sin, so I doubt that Jesus cares much now.People do evil things..some do terrible things to others. People also do good and wonderful things to others. We sin.Wrong. According to the bible everyone is born with sin due to the whole garden incident, therefor anyone who is not saved when they die whether they be a minute old or a hundred years goes straight to hell. To go to heaven, Jesus has to cleanse it of us.Why? If a God is both all powerful and all loving it would by definition have to forgive without needed asked, or at least not TORTURE PEOPLE FOR ALL ETERNITY.They atoned for sin in the old testament with animal sacrifices, and in the new testament Jesus was the sacrifice for people's sin as he is the Son of God (a part of the God trinity)
Bye! Where is the sacrifice here? God did not lose anything. Jesus did not lose anything. Neither gave anything up.

[Abracadabra]

You might not realise this, but at one time I wanted to be a preacher.

Same here. When I was a Christian I too wanted to become a preacher. However, a huge part of my reason was not to convert non-believers to the religion, but rather to help believers understand it correctly.

I looked around and saw preachers of my own Christian denomination disagreeing on various interpretations of things. Looking beyond that, I also saw the many diverse denominations of Christianity, as well as Judaism and Islam where are fragments of the very same religion.

I wanted to know who was right and what the ultimate truth is. So I studied the bible intently. After all, I had been taught that the Bible contains all the answers, and it's the infallible truth of God's word.

So I should be able to come to crystal clear solutions to this confusion, and potentially help everyone see the light. Both Christians and non-Christians alike.

Where did that journey lead? It lead me to fully understand precisely why there are so many denominations of Christianity and why the Jews and Muslims are not convinced of the New Testament claims.

In other words, the Bible is the most confusing, contradicting, and absurd collection of documents ever collected.

That was my discovery.

Where is the sacrifice here? God did not lose anything. Jesus did not lose anything. Neither gave anything up.

Exactly. :cheers:

These stories not only contain huge contradictions and absurdities, but they also make absolutely no sense at all on any level.

In fact, this very question is the most profound question of all.

Why would an all powerful God need to make a 'sacrifice' in the first place?

Who would he have had to sacrifice his so TO? (not FOR, but TO).

Would he had to sacrifice his son to mankind? That makes no sense. Mankind never requested any blood sacrifices from God. Nor would it make sense for mankind to ask for such a sacrifice. And even less sense for God to appease the demands of men.

So maybe he had to sacrifice his son to beat Satan at some war. Again that makes no sense either. That would imply that Satan was a real threat to this God and this God actually had to make a sacrifice in order to beat this real threat. That gives Satan way too much power to make God jump through hoops. So that can't be it either.

Who's left?

Well, only God himself.

God would have had to make the sacrifice unto himself to appease himself.

That is a completely absurd oxymoron, IMHO.

So this whole "sacrificial lamb" thing can't even be made to work on any level, period amen. It's clearly some sort of utterly absurd superstitious rumors that men made up and never truly gave any serious thoughts to how it could actually make any sense.

I also agree with sleeplessghost about the fact that God wouldn't have truly sacrificed anything. Jesus didn't even die spiritually, which is just yet another contradiction.

~~~~

If the wages of sin are spiritual death, and Jesus didn't die in a spiritual sense. He was resurrected from physical death and ascended to heaven. Then what sense does it even make to say that he paid the price of sin for others. He clearly would not have paid it for anyone. He didn't die spiritually.

No only didn't he die spiritually, but evidently he gets to be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords for all eternity. How could that be considered to be a 'sacrifice'?

Hell's bells, almost anyone would jump at the chance to die physically for 3 days if they knew that after that they would be resurrected and become the King of all that exists for the rest of eternity. It wouldn't be anywhere near a "sacrifice".

Calmreflect, would you like to know the real truth?

The real truth is that the biblical stories are so utterly absurd and so riddled with contradictions that they could not possibly be true.

It's just not even possible. They are so totally riddled with contradictions and absurdities that the only real miracle associated with the biblical cannon of fables is the miracle that anyone actually takes them seriously.

That is indeed my sincere honest evaluation of the ancient Hebrew religious mythology. Not meant to offend anyone. Just a very sincere, honest, and very well-researched conclusion. Coming from a person who actually wanted to become a preacher at one point (prior to actually studying the Bible).

After studying the Bible, I see no reason to even view it as a genuine holy document. I now see it to be just as false as Greek mythology, without any doubt whatsoever in my mind.

No doubt whatsoever. It's clearly false superstitious rumors, IMHO.

There is no doubt in my mind about that at all.

[Nevah]

"If you take [a copy of] the Christian Bible and put it out in the wind and the rain, soon the paper on which the words are printed will disintegrate and the words will be gone. Our bible IS the wind and the rain." Herbalist Carol McGrath as told to her by a Native-American woman

CR, Wiccans go out side and experience our "bible." Our "bible: comes to us in feelings, emotions, the love and life and we experience on a daily basis, from when we wake up in the morning to when we curl up to sleep at night. That to me is a more profound proof than words written down, edited, and controlled by man and have been used to by those in power to subjugate, control, abuse, and extort their fellow man.

I grew up in a Christian town (we had 4 churches within a 5 blocks of each other) and as a child I went to every church at one point or another. The kids who were nice to me during Sunday School and service were the same kids who bullied me, sexually harassed me, and mentally and emotionally scarred me all through out my schooling career every Monday through Friday, from Kindergarten to my Senior year. And they will all proclaim that they are "good Christians" and they went to Church every Sunday. Did that make them good people? No. I left the church and it's hollow promises as soon as I was old enough to realize what had been done in the name of the church and of God (the inquisition, the crusades, the toll to pay one's way into heaven, the destroying of learning and history countless of times), and I realized that I didn't want any associations with that. So I became a humanist who in my late teens became a Wiccan.

I've been to church with family members of mine, and I've always been able to feel "His" presence. We have a friendly relationship, He's there I'm here we kind of wave and acknowledge each other but respect each other's choices. He knows that that path isn't right for me, and I feel that he respects it. I also know what I feel when I do a ceremony, when I feel presences of nature and of the balance. And to be honest? His energy doesn't feel like it's apart of nature, like it's apart of the world, and to me it feels like it does when a person "creates" something with their energy and they give it so much that they give it a life of their own. That's what the Christian God to me feels like. Something that people over time have created and put so much energy into it has manifested into something of it's own.

__________________________________________________ ______


You came here to convert, not to discuss. You came here saying "This is what happened to me and you should do it too!" You came here telling us that our religion has no proof, but yours does. If you wanted to discuss, you would have came here saying "This is what happened to me, what happened to you guys? Were you ever part of the Church and what has been your experiences? Christianity has the Bible for proof for us, and to my knowledge Wicca doesn't have anything that is comparable for proof, but is there any? What is proof for you?" And that would have started a theological discussion, no one would have called you a Troll, and no one would be mad at you. You weren't respectful, you didn't ask any questions, and you weren't interested in actually starting a discussion.

That is the problem we are having with you and this thread. When you're ready to actually have a discussion, debate, talk, or anything along those lines, go ahead and post them. If you're here to just bash our beliefs and to try converting us to your "truths" then please just save yourself the hassle and leave us alone.

:jawdrop::woot::chearleader4:

[midsummer]

I reckon we are all able to have our say on here openly without fear of reprisal. It must be given in a courteous manner.
The Bible has more holes than a lump of swiss cheese. On the other hand it is a historical document with value.
Wicca is as much an attitude to life as a belief system.
Cheers

[crow]

One other thing...

When you say there is no historical proof of Wicca being real, you do realize that Wicca was created in the 1950's by a man, right? And that it was a collective work of inspirations from other belief systems and practices?

The documentation pertaining to the founding of Wicca is much more concrete, real, cohesive and truthful about the creation of this religion than the bible was about how it was founded.

Do you really think the bible is God's word? I believe the entire cosmos is God's word, and by God I mean a divine force, not someone who looks like a man, or even remotely resembles the god you are familiar with.

Are you aware of the changes made to the bible by committee, a committee that is not "God" or "Jesus" or even the "disciples"? Are you aware that the books used for the New Testament were decided by committee, long after the disciples, and therefore have nothing to do with the words of God or Jesus?

Are you aware of the other equally historic books from the same time periods and civilizations that are the testaments of the other disciples? Do you even know what they say? If you did, you probably wouldn't hold as much faith in the selected verses of what you believe is your bible.

Are you aware that the prophecies of Jesus never came to pass? Not even close. In fact, when the church realized they had problems with the prophecies not coming true as promised, they had to figure out ways to explain it to people, and preach it even though it went against the very words of Jesus himself.

:busted::busted::busted:

:lol::lol::lol:

I'll stick to something that allows for a realistic understanding of how the universe really works as opposed to something from back in the days when the Earth was flat and was the center of the universe.:1poke:

Just so you don't think I'm picking on you, I will leave this thread alone until CalmReflect enlightens us with some historical evidence of Jesus actually being the son of God, and this God actually being the one and only true God.

[CalmReflect]

Knowing that Jesus is the Son of God comes from faith. I've seen several signs that Jesus is real and that is important to share. It's not about being competitive about which religion is correct; it's about sharing the truth with others as we have to die eventually and it's important to know the truth. I don't know everything so I can't really argue about if there are contradictions in the bible.

John 1:10 states that "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." This is stating that Jesus was in the world and it shows that he is a form of God by the "world was made by him" part. "The world knew him not" part is referring to people not believing him and crucifying him.He is a form of God and he can help people enter heaven. John 1:12 shows this by saying that "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." God can open people's hearts to the bible and then it seems different to read and understand.

Sometimes people do lose faith.. if you have, Jesus can bring people back to him! If you're unsure, you can just try praying to him and being resilient about it. You can pray that he opens your heart to the bible.

As for those who have been hurt by Christians.. Christians are not better than anyone else, Christians do evil things and make bad decisions also. It doesn't reflect what Jesus taught about loving others.. no one here is perfect and some do terrible things.

As for karma..maybe it's true sometimes here but having faith in Jesus and his sacrifice (because he's a form of God) gets people into heaven.



I'm done arguing as I know it bothers some of you and it's a lot to respond about. If anyone has questions, they can send me a private message and I'll reply. :)

Take care.

[Alexandria]

Knowing that Jesus is the Son of God comes from faith. I've seen several signs that Jesus is real and that is important to share. It's not about being competitive about which religion is correct; it's about sharing the truth with others as we have to die eventually and it's important to know the truth.

But that's the thing. Christians aren't the only ones with faith. They're not the only ones who have seen signs, had experiences, and so on. There are members in every religion out there that can say the same.

I understand Christians feel they have "the truth," but they're not alone in that. Sometimes you have to look at it from the perspective of others.

John 1:10 states that "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."

Quoting the Bible to people who don't believe in it doesn't accomplish much. If we thought the Bible was "the truth" we'd already be Christians, right? Look at it this way, a Muslim comes up to you and tells you that you're wrong, that they have "the truth" and quotes the Quran to you to prove it... would it convince you to convert?

Honestly... if someone came to you, told you that they were right and you were wrong, had no interest in actually getting to know you or what you believe, seemingly had no interest in a true dialogue... well, would you react much differently?

I understand that you feel you've got the truth figured out, that you want to share that with people, but this really isn't the right way to go about it.

[Pinkfluff]

Knowing that Jesus is the Son of God comes from faith. I've seen several signs that Jesus is real and that is important to share. It's not about being competitive about which religion is correct; it's about sharing the truth with others as we have to die eventually and it's important to know the truth. I don't know everything so I can't really argue about if there are contradictions in the bible.

John 1:10 states that "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." This is stating that Jesus was in the world and it shows that he is a form of God by the "world was made by him" part. "The world knew him not" part is referring to people not believing him and crucifying him.He is a form of God and he can help people enter heaven. John 1:12 shows this by saying that "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." God can open people's hearts to the bible and then it seems different to read and understand.

Sometimes people do lose faith.. if you have, Jesus can bring people back to him! If you're unsure, you can just try praying to him and being resilient about it. You can pray that he opens your heart to the bible.

As for karma..maybe it's true sometimes here but having faith in Jesus and his sacrifice (because he's a form of God) gets people into heaven.
.

The only issue I have with this is how presumptuous you're being. I'm all for sharing the differences in our religious beliefs, but only from a position that is not attempting to invalidate all others. Face it, none of this stuff can be proven, and being an engineer I know some about proving things scientifically. All a person has is her/his own faith. Now if someone does not have any faith and seems to be looking for some, then sure go ahead and share what you believe in and maybe it is what they're looking for. If someone does already have faith though, even if it is not the same as yours, then if you get all presumptuous with them you're looking for a fight. I've got as much faith in what I believe as you seem to in yours.

And no, simply having faith is not enough. There's alot you can't control in life, but you can at least control how you respond to it. Only those who fight the good fight will be taken to Asgard. I was sent to Christian schools as a kid so I know that even Christians know that faith without action to back it up is meaningless.

[Abracadabra]

Sometimes people do lose faith.. if you have, Jesus can bring people back to him! If you're unsure, you can just try praying to him and being resilient about it. You can pray that he opens your heart to the bible.

Can you not see the folly of your evangelism?

Why would someone who doesn't already have "faith" in Jesus pray to him?

Why would someone who has already recognized the Bible to contain a myriad of blatant contradiction pray to that God to somehow show how can all be resolved?

Do you still pray to Zeus to reveal to you how the Greek religion can actually be true? I very seriously doubt it. Why would you? You're obviously totally convinced that it's nothing more than mythology so why bother?

Well that's the way a lot of people view the Biblical accounts of God. For them it's just obviously Hebrew mythology that has absolutely no more merit than Greek mythology. So for them to be praying to Jesus would be as senseless as you praying to Zeus.

Moreover, a whole lot of people who have tossed in the towel with Christianity have done so precisely because they used to pray to Jesus and found it to be a totally empty experience. How many times should a person need to begJesus to come into their life?

That's nonsense, if he were real, and kept his promises, a person would only need to ask once. You simply can't have Jesus going around rejecting people who are desperately reaching out to him like that. It makes no sense. Jesus would have to lie to the hilt on judgment day bearing false witness against all these former Christians who had asked him to come into their life when He was the one who refused them.

This religion simply can't work, for the very simple reason that it doesn't work.

Far more importantly, what are these people supposedly being "saved" from? The whole idea is that they are being "saved" from an angry wrathful God who will evidently become quite violent and demonic toward anyone who refuses to ask him to come into their lives (even though they have yet he blatantly refused to acknowledge their plea)

As far as I'm concerned the door is still wide open for Jesus to come into my life anytime he so chooses. He's been asked, invited, and the red carpet has been rolled out for him for decades now. If he fails to show up he sure as hell can't blame me for not asking. That would be downright unrighteous of him, but supposedly the biblical God is not an unrighteous God.

So you've got an oxymoron right there. This God would necessarily need to be unrighteous to condemn someone like me, yet according to the Gospels he has no choice but to condemn me because I don't believe in the Hebrew fables. I don't believe that Jesus was any sacrificial lamb of some demonic God who would be mean and cruel to me if I don't accept that he had to have his son nailed to a pole to "pay" for my sins.

~~~~

Look at what all a person needs so place their "faith" in, Calmreflect, in order to believe in Christianity.

It makes no sense to merely just believe in Jesus. Before you can believe that Jesus was the "Son of the God of Abraham" you must FIRST believe in the God of Abraham. Thus before you even speak of Jesus you had damn well better believe the entire Old Testament and have absolute and complete "faith" that you are in "hot water" with a creator who solves all his problems using violence, cruelty and threats of violence and cruelty.

You'd have to believe in a God who had cursed a serpent to crawl on his belly and eat dirt for the rest of his days (and supposedly this is why snakes have no legs)

You'd have to believe that this God cursed women with sorrowful conception and sorrowful childbirth because of the actions of Eve. You'd have to believe that this God not only supports male-chauvinism, but that he had actually commanded it as part of Eve's punishment that she should be ruled over by her husband and her desire shall be to serve him.

And it just goes on, and on, and on.

Then you'd have to believe that when all these violent and cruel punishments that this God continually delved out throughout the whole entire Old Testament that God finally tossed in the towel and decided that he's just have his son nailed to a pole to pay for everyone's "sin". Again, just yet another act of bloody violence as his solution to a problem.

And now we're supposed to acknowledge and condone this violent act on our behalf in order to be "saved" from the wrath of this God who apparently can only solve his problems using violence and threats of violence (And it never solves anything anyway?)

I wouldn't only need to place my "faith" in Jesus, I'd need to place my "faith" in the idea of that we were created by a so-called "God" who can only figure out how to solve his problems using violent methods and threats of punishment that never even work anyway.

Is that something that I truly want to place my "faith" in?

To be perfectly honest with you Calmreflect, I'd rather have "faith" that atheism is true! I would rather the whole universe was just some sort of freak accident than to believe in a God who can only try to solve problems using violence and threats of violence that never even work anyway.

That's supposed to be a "All-Wise" God?

With all due respect I don't see one iota of wisdom in these ancient fables.

~~~~

However, if I accept Jesus as a mortal man things suddenly look far better.

Jesus as a mortal man simply rejected the horrible teachings of the Old Testament. He renounced the judging of others and the stoning of sinners to death and instead he taught that we should not judge others. He renounced the seeking revenge, as in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, and instead he taught forgiveness and to turn the other cheek.

Jesus was the anti-thesis of the Old Testament teachings.

He called the Scribes and Pharisees hypocrites and referred to their Torah as "Your Law", not as "God's Word".

As far as I'm concerned it makes far more sense to believe that Jesus had actually spoken out against the ancient Hebrew mythology of the Torah and tried instead to teach people are real moral values.

He was eventually crucified for having called the Pharisees hypocrites, and after he died and rumors started up about who he might have been those very same Scribes and Pharisees nailed Jesus to the Torah via the "New Testament".

So they crucified him twice. Once when they physically nailed him to a pole, and the second time when they nailed him to the Torah (the very doctrine that Jesus himself had clearly renounced).

~~~~~

Finally, why are you so concerned with "saving" other people from "God's Wrath"?

What would even be the point to evangelism really? From my perspective all evangelism amounts to is people proclaiming that they have absolutely "no faith" in the biblical God at all when it comes to being righteous.

After all, how could a supposedly righteous God condemn any decent person?

He couldn't. To do so would clearly not be righteous.

So what's to fear?

A righteous God would surely have a means of "saving" righteous people without demanding that they believe in utterly obscene and often absurd stories.

A disbelief in the Bible cannot possibly constitute a "sin". That is a totally absurd notion right there. A disbelief that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb of God can also not possibly constitute a "sin".

Those very notions can only be man-made notions created for the express purpose of using religion as a means to convert and control the masses.

~~~~

The bottom line for any Christian who truly wants to believe in a genuinely "righteous" God would be to do just that. Believe that a righteous will make absolutely certain no decent people are cast into any hell-fire.

And then relax. :cheers:

There could be absolutely no need for you to evangelize anyone. For if they deserve to be "saved" you can rest assured that a truly righteous God will indeed "save" them. And if they don't deserve to be "saved" then you are either wasting your time evangelizing to them OR you'd end up getting an unrighteous person "saved". But wouldn't that be an oxymoron?

If you truly believe that God is "righteous" and would never condemn any undeserving person to eternal damnation, then why should you be concerned with proselytizing of evangelizing?

All that proselytizing and evangelizing does is serve to show that you don't trust God to be righteous. You don't trust God to "save" deserving people without your help!

In fact, if you personally had an influenced in saving so much as a single soul then you would have trumped God's righteousness, because obviously that person would not have been "saved" had it not been for you.

But what does that say? All that says is that God would have cast that person into eternal damnation and the only reason that person was saved was because of YOU!

That very notion makes no sense.

~~~~

You're asking us to reevaluate Christianity by praying to Jesus.

Well, I'm asking you to reevaluate Christianity by just stopping to think about it for moment.

[Abracadabra]

Knowing that Jesus is the Son of God comes from faith.

By the way, that's an oxymoron right there.

Knowing something cannot come from faith.

Faith is only required when you can't know something.

If you actually could know it, then you wouldn't need to have faith.

[Pinkfluff]

Those very notions can only be man-made notions created for the express purpose of using religion as a means to convert and control the masses.

lol you wrote a book, but got to the real issue behind it. The way Christianity is so patriarchal and demands that a person get all of their spiritual guidance and moral direction from a single source makes it a great way to control people. Most people are too dumb to really think for themselves anyway, so the brainwashing works. Probably why the "religious right" wants to keep schools dumbed down too.

But yeah, while Christianity may have some good points if you dig deep enough, it simply has too many errors of logic for me to be able to subscribe to it. And that's why I don't. I'm not saying that everything in Heathen lore always makes perfect sense either, but I've never met anyone who thinks that it is indisputable fact either.

It is up to each of us to find our own truth (though obviously things like gravity are true for everyone like it or not), and to save ourselves from our own personal failings.

[Abracadabra]

Sometimes people do lose faith.. if you have, Jesus can bring people back to him! If you're unsure, you can just try praying to him and being resilient about it. You can pray that he opens your heart to the bible.

Why would it require resilience?

It should only require a single sincere request. There's nowhere in anything Jesus supposedly taught in the gospels that indicates that people need to grovel and beg.

And the whole thing about "opening a person's heart", is also nonsense. Extremely sincere people have appealed to Jesus with no results. Their hearts couldn't have been more open.

The whole Christian religion rest entirely on the idea that to merely not believe in Jesus makes a person "unrighteous".

That's the only way they can justify their God condemning such a person.

Yet, the very idea of not believing in something makes a person "unrighteous" is itself an insane idea. To not believe in something does not make a person "unrighteous".

So the whole religion is based entirely on totally unsupportable demands.

The Christian "God" would necessarily need to be an "unrighteous" God because Christianity basically demands it.

It's a religion that absolutely needs to find a way to justify having their God condemn anyone who refuses to convert to, and support, Christianity.

That's the bottom line.

It has nothing to do with "righteousness", all it has to do with is a man-made cult that has gotten completely out of control. Christianity is probably the most "unrighteous" religion on Planet Earth.

It's basically destroys the very concept of "righteousness" in an totally feeble and failed attempt to try to justify an "unrighteous" picture of a God.

What truly amazes me is that so many people can't see though this man-made religious scam. Just look at its history. It was clearly a religion that was created by the politics of Rome, mainly due to Constantine.

It has far more to do with Constantine than it ever had to do with Jesus.

[Abracadabra]

lol you wrote a book, but got to the real issue behind it. The way Christianity is so patriarchal and demands that a person get all of their spiritual guidance and moral direction from a single source makes it a great way to control people. Most people are too dumb to really think for themselves anyway, so the brainwashing works. Probably why the "religious right" wants to keep schools dumbed down too.

Yes, this is a seriously hot topic for me personally. :cheers:

I tend to ramble on when faced with a proselytizer, evangelist, or hardcore fundamentalist.

It's an obvious scam to me. Without a doubt. It's really quite simple; No decent righteous supreme being could possibly be affiliated with such a hateful brainwashing scheme.

That's about as simple as it gets.

[sleeplessghost]

Had anyone else noticed that Calmreflect did not seem to answer anyones critisisms? I have. I also noticed a few other things: He is poor at debating, evangelising, and apologizing but he is good at being a coward.

Saying that people need to talk to you in PM means that you realise what an ass you are being and dont have the strength of your convictions to take the heat others are giving you. I don't expect anything else from Christians, though.

[Pinkfluff]

Had anyone else noticed that Calmreflect did not seem to answer anyones critisisms?

Yes but I expected as much. I can respect a good discussion or rational argument even if I don't agree with it, but not the same tired, nonsensical tactics over and over again.

[CalmReflect]

Sleeplessghost,

1. I am a female, dumbass

2. I can't respond to every post, there are over 40.

3. I said to PM because I don't feel like dealing with an annoyingly long debate with rude people like yourself.

[Abracadabra]

Had anyone else noticed that Calmreflect did not seem to answer anyones critisisms? I have. I also noticed a few other things: He is poor at debating, evangelising, and apologizing but he is good at being a coward.

Saying that people need to talk to you in PM means that you realise what an ass you are being and dont have the strength of your convictions to take the heat others are giving you. I don't expect anything else from Christians, though.

And here I thought I had a bad attitude toward Christianity. http://users.csonline.net/designer/ideas/rofl.gif

I think Calmreflect is indeed a reflection of precisely the kind of sheep mentality that is required to believe in the religion. I wouldn't go as far as calling "him/her" a coward. He/she probably believes in the religion and simply hasn't truly questioned it deeply.

After all, people who want to place their faith in something aren't going to question it. Anytime they even see something that can't be made sense of they just fall back onto the idea of faith. Just trust that God has reasons that simply aren't explained in these stories.

I mean, from that perspective anything can be excused. The idea being that we simply don't have enough information to understand why God had chosen to do the things that he did. We simply must have faith that in the end, God is all-wise and knows best.

But the problem with that mindset is that it actually ignores the facts of the doctrine, and just makes excuses for them based on the idea that we don't know the full story. But if that's the case then why should anyone believe in these stories?

The bottom line for me is really quite simple. If there exists a truly righteous God, then I know I'm safe, because I know that I'm a truly righteous person. What would I have to fear from a righteous God? The only kind of God I would need to fear would be an unrighteous God. So the only way I would need to fear the biblical God is if it is indeed an unrighteous God.

And like I say, the very idea that people feel that they need to "evangelize" to others can only be because they do not trust God to do the right thing on his own!

I mean, gee whiz, if I'm going to believe in a righteous God, the very first requirement that I would expect this God to have as a character trait, is to indeed be a righteous being.

And if God is righteous then no undeserving person would ever be cast into eternal damnation. And this God most certainly wouldn't need my help to insure that didn't happen.

So proselytizing and evangelizing are the anti-thesis of any religion that claims to have a truly righteous God.

Yet this is the very foundation of Christianity. Therefore it cannot be a true religion. It necessarily had to be a false myth. The very nature of the religion itself is the anti-thesis of righteousness.

Clearly Calmreflect simply can't see this, for wherever reason. Does that make him or her a coward? No. It just suggests that he/she is blind. A victim of this religious brainwashing cult.

It's easy to fall in love with Jesus. But unfortunately Christianity as a religion is about as anti-Jesus as any religion can possibly be. They harp on the damnation promised by the God of Abraham. In fact, that's what they claim Jesus supposedly came to "save" people from.

So it's really not about Jesus at all. It's about being "saved" from the wrath of the nasty God of Abraham!

You have to first believe that God is out to get you, before it even makes sense to believe in Jesus.

Faith that God is a monster must come first. Otherwise there would be no need for to place faith in Jesus at all.

But Christians are so obsessed with Jesus that they seem to totally miss the point that Jesus is ultimately supposed to be "saving" them from the wrath of God!

You must place your faith in an "unrighteous God" before it even makes any sense to place faith in Jesus.

For some reason Christians can't seem to realize this very simple truth.

[Alexandria]

Let's take it easy on the name calling and personal insults, folks. We should all be able to make our points without resorting to that sort of thing, right?

[Abracadabra]

1. I am a female, dumbass


Good that will save all the He/She, Him/Her crap. :signthankspin:

Hmmmm? Dumbass? Such nice language for an evangelist.


2. I can't respond to every post, there are over 40.


You should have thought of that before you started a thread proclaiming that there is no evidence for Wicca, but that there is tons of evidence for Christianity.

What did you expect? People to just accept your opinion on that?


3. I said to PM because I don't feel like dealing with an annoyingly long debate with rude people like yourself.

A couch potato evangelist. http://users.csonline.net/designer/ideas/rofl.gif

Just send me the ones who are easy to convert. I don't want to have to explain away all these obvious problems with Christianity to people who have actually done the work of studying this stuff.

Obviously this thread is just an advertisement for a Christian Evangelist. :spamsign:

[Pinkfluff]

Sleeplessghost,

1. I am a female, dumbass


Should have said so sooner :) I suspected you might be, but since I didn't see any objections to male pronouns in other posts, I just went with it.

The sad thing is that this could have been a somewhat interesting thread if it had been kept to a discussion of the theology and spirituality instead of about which is better/true.

[jdwoodschild]

When I was a teen I sat down and thought "If someone has to believe in this or be damned, if someone has to believe in this to be saved, what about the people who have never been exposed to this?"

Even in my early teens I just couldn't believe that the Christian god would send good people to hell. And why? It doesn't make sense. There are SOOOO many people on this planet who are tribal, are in remote corners, have no access to the modern world. Does that make them bad people? No. Choices make them bad people. You choose to be bad or you choose to be good. Are people innately bad, evil, mean, and cruel? No. Do I believe all people have original sin, and just by the act of being born make us sinners? No! That would mean every child who is too young to grasp the concept of religion, Jesus, god, sin, and then choose to have Jesus as their savior is going to hell.

Let me repeat that: If you must choose Jesus as your savior to go to heaven or otherwise you go to hell, that means EVERY CHILD that died before the ages of 5-8 (where you start having real cognative abilities and are able to not only make but understand your choices) WENT TO HELL.

Children, innocent babies who had the misfortune of dying young, based on the teachings of the bible, any and all who died young through out the history of man:

WENT. TO. HELL.

I just couldn't believe in a faith system that justified that. I can't believe in a faith system that would condemn others to hell when they were good people and just believed the "wrong" thing. So I didn't. I became a humanist, and even now as a Wiccan I believe for being good for the sake of being good and because it's the right thing to do.

So, your thoughts on infants going to Hell CalmReflect? Oh and by the way baptizing them doesn't count because the children don't and can't -choose- to be baptized, they can't choose to accept and follow a certain religion, and they can't choose to accept Jesus as their savior.

[Abracadabra]

When I was a teen I sat down and thought "If someone has to believe in this or be damned, if someone has to believe in this to be saved, what about the people who have never been exposed to this?"

That's an interesting thing there too. According to some, (in order to preserve God's righteousness) people who never heard the words of Jesus are necessarily exempt from having to believe in the Bible or following the teaching of Jesus.

So ironically this places evangelists in one hell of a boat!

They are going around trying to make sure everyone has heard the word. So ultimately they are placing people in harms way who wouldn't have otherwise been in harms way.

http://users.csonline.net/designer/ideas/rofl.gif

In this sense evangelists wouldn't be doing anyone a favor!

People would be far better off never hearing about it.

[Pinkfluff]

When I was a teen I sat down and thought "If someone has to believe in this or be damned, if someone has to believe in this to be saved, what about the people who have never been exposed to this?"

I always wondered about that too growing up. They always said that the one God was a loving, merciful God, but that people who didn't follow Jesus went to hell. That is one of the errors of logic that I referred to in a previous post.

Let me repeat that: If you must choose Jesus as your savior to go to heaven or otherwise you go to hell, that means EVERY CHILD that died before the ages of 5-8 (where you start having real cognative abilities and are able to not only make but understand your choices) WENT TO HELL.

Well, they do go to Hel, though Heathen Hel is much different than Christian hell ;)

[Abracadabra]

I always wondered about that too growing up. They always said that the one God was a loving, merciful God, but that people who didn't follow Jesus went to hell. That is one of the errors of logic that I referred to in a previous post.

This is a far deeper error of logic than you might think. Even Christian theologians and clergy argue about this one.

The idea was that no mortal man could resist sin. And what is "sin"? Nothing but disobedience to God. Therefore no mortal man can obey God via his own free will.

That was the very reason that Jesus was necessary as the "sacrificial lamb" to pay for the sins of mankind. When a person is "saved" by Jesus it's not because they have willing agreed to obey or follow him. It had already been well-established that it's utterly impossible for any mortal man to obey God (i.e. be without sin).

That did not change with the coming of Jesus. What Jesus represents is GRACE! The idea being that when you ask Jesus to come into your life he then comes into your life and only through his presence in your life are you able to no longer sin.

Therefore it cannot be about "following" Jesus, or "obeying" Jesus, as many fundamentalists would like to claim.

It can only be about "Grace".

Therefore, if a person asks Jesus to come into their life, and nothing changes for them, then clearly he didn't show up!

But if they had asked him, then who's fault could it possibly be that he was a no-show?

Like I tell any evangelist. Jesus is more than welcome to come into my life. He has been asked, and the door to that has never been close. Jesus is more than welcome to come into my life anytime he's ready. I certainly can't force Jesus to do anything he doesn't want to do. All I can do is ASK. And that has been done.

If he doesn't show up, I have no choice but to conclude that he must have been nothing more than a myth. After all, he supposedly promised that he would show up. What good would a God be who can't even keep his own promises?

I shouldn't have to "believe" in Jesus as a matter of "faith" if he's real. If he's real he should show up like he's supposed to.

On the other hand if I need to simply pretend that he's real as a matter of "faith". Then I need to seriously ask why I should place my faith in the idea that I'm at odds with my creator in the first place. Because like I say, that faith would need to come first.

There is no need to believe in Jesus as a "savior" if I don't first have something I need to be "saved" from.

Since I've never felt at odds with God, I see no reason to place my faith in Christianity. That would actually require that I belittle God. I would need to actually believe that God is a demon who is out to get me before the idea of Jesus can even make any sense.

[Pandora13x]

Now if someone does not have any faith and seems to be looking for some, then sure go ahead and share what you believe in and maybe it is what they're looking for. If someone does already have faith though, even if it is not the same as yours, then if you get all presumptuous with them you're looking for a fight. I've got as much faith in what I believe as you seem to in yours.

Even if the person doesn't have faith, I still don't think anyone should be shoving their own religion in that person's face. Not everyone needs or wants religious/spiritual faith.

[Pinkfluff]

If he's real he should show up like he's supposed to.


I generally I agree with what you say, except for this. Now I don't know if most Christians believe that simply asking for contact from the Divine makes it happen, but I can say from my perspective, and based on what I've seen other Pagans say on other forums, that simply asking is not necessarily enough. Sometimes you may have to ask multiple times, sometimes even offer something, in order to get one of the Gods to enter your life in a significant, personal way. History indicates that he is real, but whether he is a God or just one of us is up for debate. That aside though, not showing up is not enough evidence in itself to say that he doesn't exist. It makes sense to me that some Gods are easier to relate to, and more willing to involve themselves with us, than others, and it may depend on the individual to. One person can say that Jesus came to her, and I can say that Freya came to me, and we can both be right. I know that is a decidedly polytheistic point of view, but monotheism never made sense to me.

Even if the person doesn't have faith, I still don't think anyone should be shoving their own religion in that person's face. Not everyone needs or wants religious/spiritual faith.

Certainly not, that's why I added "seems to be looking for some". If they clearly don't want to hear about your beliefs, leave them alone.

[Abracadabra]

I generally I agree with what you say, except for this. Now I don't know if most Christians believe that simply asking for contact from the Divine makes it happen, but I can say from my perspective, and based on what I've seen other Pagans say on other forums, that simply asking is not necessarily enough. Sometimes you may have to ask multiple times, sometimes even offer something, in order to get one of the Gods to enter your life in a significant, personal way. History indicates that he is real, but whether he is a God or just one of us is up for debate. That aside though, not showing up is not enough evidence in itself to say that he doesn't exist. It makes sense to me that some Gods are easier to relate to, and more willing to involve themselves with us, than others, and it may depend on the individual to. One person can say that Jesus came to her, and I can say that Freya came to me, and we can both be right. I know that is a decidedly polytheistic point of view, but monotheism never made sense to me.

Well, that's the problem with Christianity. It's not only monotheistic, but it also claims that Jesus is the "Only Way". Therefore if you ask Jesus to come into your life and he fails to do so, then you're up the creek, because supposedly there is no one else you can turn to.

But all that's for naught anyway. Even the gospels have Jesus clearly stating that he did not come for the righteous, but for the sinners. Therefore, either he was lying to the Pharisees, which isn't good. Or he meant what he said, in which case the Christians are totally wrong in their conclusion that everyone is a sinner and needs to be 'saved' by Jesus. That would be in direct conflict with what Jesus himself supposedly taught.

Maybe the reason Jesus doesn't bother with righteous people is because there's simply no need to. If you were already a good person when you asked Jesus to come into your life that would be like calling a doctor when there was nothing wrong with you.

But the Christians won't have any of that. They refuse to allow these words of Jesus to stand, and would rather use the words of Paul against everyone claiming that all men are sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God.

That's the problem with the whole Christian cannon. About 99.9% of it doesn't even have anything at all to do with anything Jesus supposedly taught.

I personally think it makes far more sense that he was a Jewish Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva. To me, that just makes far more sense than to believe he was the sacrificial lamb of a God who is chomping at the bit to condemn everyone for nothing more than not believing in him.

[sleeplessghost]

Sleeplessghost,

1. I am a female, dumbass

2. I can't respond to every post, there are over 40.

3. I said to PM because I don't feel like dealing with an annoyingly long debate with rude people like yourself.

1. U mad bro? I had no idea what sex you were. Saying "he" was not an insult to you.
2. You were able to respond to my last post quite quickly, yet took weeks between your others. Your actions are more telling than your words.
3. How have I been rude, other than my last post? I took your standard fundy argument and tore it down so that you could see the flaws in it. I also quoted biblical passages that showed the bible could not even get a time period for jesus' birth correct. I took time to respond to your arguments, yet you did not offer any of us the same consideration.
4. You came here looking for a fight and I'm going to give you one. Not once have you demonstated a willingness to discuss your religion other than trying to convert people.

And here I thought I had a bad attitude toward Christianity. http://users.csonline.net/designer/ideas/rofl.gif

I think Calmreflect is indeed a reflection of precisely the kind of sheep mentality that is required to believe in the religion. I wouldn't go as far as calling "him/her" a coward. He/she probably believes in the religion and simply hasn't truly questioned it deeply. ...

Clearly Calmreflect simply can't see this, for wherever reason. Does that make him or her a coward? No. It just suggests that he/she is blind. A victim of this religious brainwashing cult.



I did not call Calmreflect a coward because she has a differant faith than my own. I called her a coward because she refused to answer any of our questions and then suggested that we do it in PM where she can easily respond to any weak questions or arguments and ignore strong ones. She lacks the courage to face her detractors, even going so far as to imply that if I was to PM her she would ignore my questions if the debate became too long or if she considered me "rude."

[jdwoodschild]

1. U mad bro?


LOOOOOLOLOOOOOOOOOOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

:lol:

Ghost, I love you lolololol That made me laugh SOOOOOOO hard!

[Gwenyfur]

Why are we still feeding an obvious troll?
If she wants to evangelize I suggest the largest online cesspool of christianity there is: www.christianforums.com

And before anyone jumps to conclusions yes...I was an admin on that board for a couple of years. Just one more reason I ceased my foray back into christianity after a few short years...I was miserable, and couldn't maintain the level of closed minded bigotry required to be a "good" christian

[sleeplessghost]

Why are we still feeding an obvious troll?
If she wants to evangelize I suggest the largest online cesspool of christianity there is: www.christianforums.com

And before anyone jumps to conclusions yes...I was an admin on that board for several years. And one more reason I ceased my foray back into christianity after a few short years...I was miserable, and couldn't maintain the level of closed minded bigotry required to be a "good" christian

Still feeding the troll because this website is important to me. I can't explain why but I feel that by tearing apart her posts I am somehow defending my home.

[jdwoodschild]

So, is this wrong of me: I want to join the forum and make a post asking if the people there believe that going to a non-Christian religion forum, denouncing the beliefs of the people in that forum, and telling them that they need to convert is the right or good thing to do.

Oi. I haven't read the bible since I was... 13? 14? I've forgotten all of the really good passages I used to quote when people debated with me.

[sleeplessghost]

Try the skeptics annotated bible, plently of good contradictions in there.

It is not wrong for you to go to that website and state your case, but you will be quickly banned.

[Abracadabra]

...I was miserable, and couldn't maintain the level of closed minded bigotry required to be a "good" christian

That's a very sad truth indeed.

This is why I have absolutely no problem at all downing the religion.

Christianity truly is about as "anti-Jesus" as a a religion can possibly get. Jesus has been crucified over and over and over again by the Christians themselves. Starting with the likes of Paul, and Constantine of Rome, continuing through the Crusades, and culminating in the despicable burning times when tens of thousands of innocent people were tortured and burned alive in the name of "Jesus Christ the Almighty Savior".

They just use Jesus as an excuse to spread ignorance, bigotry, fear, and emotional terrorism toward all who refuse to climb on-board their "Jesus Bigotry Wagon".

Everyone will have to excuse me, but I have absolutely no sympathy for the religion at all. None, zip, nada.

I mean, I don't go around putting down "Christians" because I realize that the vast majority of them are just brainwashed sheep who are trying to do the right thing. But I have ZERO tolerance for anyone who's actually going around proselytizing the religion.

Especially in the totally ignorant style of Calmreflect. He she comes onto a non-Christian website, puts down the religion of the website, and then acts like people are supposed to respect her for it.

Christianity must be getting really hard-up to recruit new members.

[Pinkfluff]

1. U mad bro?

Even after you know she's a woman, you call her bro?

4. You came here looking for a fight and I'm going to give you one. Not once have you demonstated a willingness to discuss your religion other than trying to convert people.

That is certainly true. Obviously this is a Wiccan forum, and she came here blatantly proselytizing. What did she think was going to happen?

I guess I really shouldn't be referring to her in the third person either, but one never knows if she is actively following the thread or not.

[Alexandria]

If she wants to evangelize I suggest the largest online cesspool of christianity there is: www.christianforums.com

I've been a member there for several years, the non-Christian religion section use to be fairly decent for interfaith conversations. Then the rules got a lot more strict, and it sort of turned into a daily Christianity vs. Islam and ugh...

Still, if she goes with her current tactics, I can say without doubt they won't go over any better. This approach is just not effective for reasons I already pointed out.

[Pandora13x]

Certainly not, that's why I added "seems to be looking for some". If they clearly don't want to hear about your beliefs, leave them alone.

Oh, I saw the "seems to be looking for some," but I see people (even people whom I would otherwise consider to be wise and open minded people) spouting the idea that someone who lacks religious/spiritual faith is somehow empty or missing something or lost, and so I felt a need to point out that not everyone wants/needs that kind of faith, not so much because I though you were espousing those ideas so much as because I though it would be easy for anyone reading these posts to overlook that segment of the population (faithless and glad for it).

I tend to write for the lurkers as much as the people I'm actually responding to, sorry for the confusion :/

That's a very sad truth indeed.

This is why I have absolutely no problem at all downing the religion.

Christianity truly is about as "anti-Jesus" as a a religion can possibly get. Jesus has been crucified over and over and over again by the Christians themselves. Starting with the likes of Paul, and Constantine of Rome, continuing through the Crusades, and culminating in the despicable burning times when tens of thousands of innocent people were tortured and burned alive in the name of "Jesus Christ the Almighty Savior".

They just use Jesus as an excuse to spread ignorance, bigotry, fear, and emotional terrorism toward all who refuse to climb on-board their "Jesus Bigotry Wagon".

Everyone will have to excuse me, but I have absolutely no sympathy for the religion at all. None, zip, nada.

Please keep in mind that while the Christians you speak of most certainly exist (and I know more of them than I would care to) they are not necessarily representative of the whole of Christianity. The other sort, the type who has put a great deal of thought into his/her faith, who feels a deep spiritual connection with the religion and who also understands that others may have found a different path, which is equally valid and fulfilling, exists as well, and I have met a great many of them also.

The bottomline is, neither of use knows a large enough sample of the population to know which (if either) of these types of Christian is the norm. We can know which variety is louder, which tends to garner more media coverage, and which overall seems to be more prevalent (as the loudest of the bunch always does), but we can't know the reality without knowing a heck of a lot more Christians than is really possible for one person to know. I wonder what the average person thinks the average pagan is like...

In any case, there's absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out the inconsistencies in a mythology or path (for they certainly exist, probably even within my own path), and there's nothing wrong with arguing or debating with an individual who is clearly only interested in filling his or her saved-soul quota, but please keep in mind that your own experiences with a religious following might not be representative of the followers of that religion as a whole (even if it is the reality of your area, it's a big big world, and it probably isn't identical to your own corner of the world).

I hope this isn't out of line, and it's quite possible that I am misreading in my lack of sleep (as usual, I'm reading on very little sleep, so by all means correct me if I am mistaken, but also as usual, I ask that you respond not just by saying that I am incorrect in my interpretation, but by also by saying what it is that you actually meant), but Christian-bashing seems like something of a common theme in your posts (something I've mentioned on more than one occasion, without response), and to be honest it really colors your other posts for me.

[Lunacie]

Pandora, I can't give you another reputation point just yet, so I'll just say here "Thank you for that post."

[Abracadabra]

I hope this isn't out of line, and it's quite possible that I am misreading in my lack of sleep (as usual, I'm reading on very little sleep, so by all means correct me if I am mistaken, but also as usual, I ask that you respond not just by saying that I am incorrect in my interpretation, but by also by saying what it is that you actually meant), but Christian-bashing seems like something of a common theme in your posts (something I've mentioned on more than one occasion, without response), and to be honest it really colors your other posts for me.

Yes, I would definitely say that you are mistaken in your impressions. The only "Christians" I bash are the actual authors of the New Testament. In fact, as far as I'm concerned they are the only true "Christians", everyone else is just a follower of the religion.

Being a follower of a religion does not make a person responsible for a religion.

Do I have serious problems with the authors of the New Testament?

Absolutely!

It is true that I have come to some very serious conclusions about Christianity (the actual doctrine of the New Testament). Conclusions that I'll confess may very well indeed be totally misplaced and incorrect. None the less, they are the conclusions that I have come to at this point in time, and I've come to them for very good reasons.

The "Christians" (i.e. The Authors of the New Testament, not necessarily their followers), have made some pretty extreme accusations toward all of humanity. They have proclaimed that "All men are sinners and are in dire need of salvation". That's an accusation that being made toward all of humanity by these authors. Since I'm a human, I feel that I have a right to rebuttal.

I have a right to call the authors of the New Testament on the carpet for their outrageous claims about Jesus.

For example, I can make a very good case for the following:

1. Jesus never wrote a single solitary word of the New Testament.

2. Jesus never instructed anyone to write such a religious document.

3. Jesus most certainly never demanded that anyone read any such document or praise it as his verbatim words.

4. In fact, even in these gospels the authors make many blatantly contradicting statements about Jesus.

5. In these gospels they have Jesus stating that he will not judge anyone who does not believe in him or his words, yet as a commentary John writes that anyone who does not believe in the name of Jesus is condemned already. That blatantly flies in the face of what these gospels even have Jesus actually saying. Moreover, many of those verses are not even attributed to Jesus at all, but are clearly just the narrative opinions of the authors who are writing about Jesus.

6. The gospels have Jesus stating to the Pharisees that he did not come for the righteous but for the sinners. Yet later in an entirely different book of the Bible Paul claims that all men are sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God. A blatant contradiction to the very words that had been assigned to Jesus.

7. Jesus never prophesied that some guy name Saul/Paul would come along in the near future to finish his ministry. Yet about 75% of the New Testament is actually the ramblings of Paul. People often quote Paul and act like Jesus said these things. In fact, they will take anything in the New Testament and act like it came straight from Jesus, when in fact, the doctrine doesn't even make these claims. (other than perhaps Paul's claim to have seen Jesus in visions)

But again, Jesus never prophesied that coming of Paul. How could Jesus not have prophesied the coming of someone who would end up writing 75% of what was to become the "Word of God".

In fact, Jesus never even prophesied that any "New Testament" would ever be written.

Also, Jesus never told anyone that they needed to believe that the Torah was the "Word of God". As far as I can tell even Jesus didn't like what was written in the Torah.

~~~~

So, yes, having been born and raised into Christianity, I feel that I have a right to have a major opinion on the religion. The religion has ultimately had a very negative affect on my life, (certainly not due to anything that Jesus supposedly taught), but due all the twisted rumors about Jesus.

Other "Christians" throughout history were also people who used the religion for political, or other purposes. I certainly count Constantine as a major player in "Christianity". I also count the authors of the Malleus Maleficarum, as well as anyone who supported that book in the name of "Christianity" as "Christians".

~~~~

The people you speak of (i.e. many modern day followers of Christianity who call themselves "Christians", truly don't even believe in the biblical doctrine verbatim). In fact, most of them don't even have a clue what's actually in the Bible in detail.

I can't tell you how many "Christians" I've met who don't even know that the Jews were God's "Chosen People". They instantly claim that God doesn't play "favorites", etc. But yes, the Biblical God most certainly does play favorites. In fact, the only people that the biblical God is supposedly interested in are the descendants of Abraham.

And women are definitely supposed to be ruled over by their husbands. That was Eve's punishment for luring Adam into eating the forbidden fruit.

Most modern day Christians today are either totally unaware of what the Bible actually says, or they are in complete denial of it.

So when I speak to "Christianity" I'm truly speaking to the religion, not to today's followers who don't even know what's in the doctrine.

Unless of course, they are vociferous fundamentalists who do know what's in the doctrine and support it to the hilt. Those people are probably the only "true Christians" left.

The vast majority of "Modern Day Christianity" are just people who have become victims of the brainwashing scheme. They are just trying to do what's right. So they just focus on Jesus and try to ignore anything that doesn't fit in with that. They don't want to lose Jesus because he's their ticket to eternal life. They've also been taught that they'll be damned should they fail to support the very ideal that "Jesus is Lord".

So they have a lot to lose by turning their back on the religion. It's no wonder that so many modern people continue to cling to it. They can't be blamed. Who wants to reject a "gift" of eternal life, and "risk" possible eternal damnation and hell fire?

It's far safer to just go along with the religion and pray for the best result.

Who could blame them?

:cheers:

[Pandora13x]

Yes, I would definitely say that you are mistaken in your impressions. The only "Christians" I bash are the actual authors of the New Testament. In fact, as far as I'm concerned they are the only true "Christians", everyone else is just a follower of the religion.

Being a follower of a religion does not make a person responsible for a religion.

I'm somewhat pressed for time, so I didn't go back and find all the things that led me to believe that you were using the commonly used meaning of the word "Christian" (that is, a person who follows the religion of Christianity. Merriam-Webster gives the definition "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ"), but this quote here:

I mean, I don't go around putting down "Christians" because I realize that the vast majority of them are just brainwashed sheep who are trying to do the right thing. But I have ZERO tolerance for anyone who's actually going around proselytizing the religion.

Seems to be using a different definition of "Christian" than the one you give here:

Yes, I would definitely say that you are mistaken in your impressions. The only "Christians" I bash are the actual authors of the New Testament. In fact, as far as I'm concerned they are the only true "Christians", everyone else is just a follower of the religion.

[SNIP]

The "Christians" (i.e. The Authors of the New Testament, not necessarily their followers), have made some pretty extreme accusations toward all of humanity. They have proclaimed that "All men are sinners and are in dire need of salvation". That's an accusation that being made toward all of humanity by these authors.

In fact, the description you give in post #78 of "Modern Day Christianity" seems very similar to that of "Christians" in your other post that I quoted. For comparison, here it is:

The vast majority of "Modern Day Christianity" are just people who have become victims of the brainwashing scheme. They are just trying to do what's right. So they just focus on Jesus and try to ignore anything that doesn't fit in with that. They don't want to lose Jesus because he's their ticket to eternal life. They've also been taught that they'll be damned should they fail to support the very ideal that "Jesus is Lord".[/QUOTE]

The confusion is increased here, where you seem to revert briefly back to the other definition:

Most modern day Christians today are either totally unaware of what the Bible actually says, or they are in complete denial of it.

My first thought was that you were trying to put your previous posts in a different light by claiming that you were simply using a different definition of the word (something that you do actually do fairly often. Use different definitions of commonly used words, I mean), but I'm sure that's not the case, so please forgive my hastily cast judgment there.

Regardless, the definition you give in post #78 seems to be, essentially, "those Christians who used religion to do harm or who are rabidly fundamentalist," based on your statement that

Other "Christians" throughout history were also people who used the religion for political, or other purposes. I certainly count Constantine as a major player in "Christianity". I also count the authors of the Malleus Maleficarum, as well as anyone who supported that book in the name of "Christianity" as "Christians".

And your words here:

Unless of course, they are vociferous fundamentalists who do know what's in the doctrine and support it to the hilt. Those people are probably the only "true Christians" left.

Along with your words here:

The people you speak of (i.e. many modern day followers of Christianity who call themselves "Christians", truly don't even believe in the biblical doctrine verbatim). In fact, most of them don't even have a clue what's actually in the Bible in detail.

Seems to suggest that you categorize "followers of Christianity" into two distinct groups: the brainwashed sheeple who don't really know anything about the religion they claim to follow, and bible literalists who believe in following their holy writ precisely and taking every word as fact (and then expecting everyone else to do the same).

You don't seem to allow for any middle ground (for example, Christians who have put a great deal of thought into their faith - and who probably do not view the bible literally, as not all Christians do you know - and who feel a deep spiritual connection and fulfillment through their faith, and who also understand that other people may find their own spiritual fulfillment through another path. You know, the people I mentioned in my last post).

Furthermore, you only seem to cound the latter group (the fundamental bible literalists) as actual Christians, which seems odd considering that you yourself stated that the flavor of Christianity subscribed to by those individuals has very little to do with Christ.

I have other things that I think I want to say (not totally decided), but I'll leave you with that for now.

[jdwoodschild]

I agree with Pandora. Not all Christians are bad. I also see where Abracadabra comes from with his (I do believe you are a he, if I'm wrong please correct me lol) side where he's very aggravated with those who are extreme fundamentalists and blind sheep. I am myself very frustrated with Christianity as a whole, but I do know people who are out there who are good, kind, loving, considerate people who are Christians by faith. My brother is a lovely example of this. He didn't know me the majority of my life (half brother, I'm the result of a mid life crisis on our father's part) but from the instant that he knew of me he wanted to meet me and he felt love for me. My brother is the only time in my life I have ever felt unconditional, unquestioning love. He knows I'm not a Christian, he knows I'm Wiccan. When staying over at his place I join the family with going to Church, I don't try putting different ideas or thoughts into his daughter's head because I respect his rights as a parent to raise his children as he sees fit. Which, as a father of 5, he's done a wonderful job with all of them. The oldest and his wife are touring the country with a Christian group, raising money for the poor, and helping kids. The next younger one and his wife have gone to other countries and helped build houses, feed people, clothe people, and give them needed medicine, the third is in college getting his music degree and working on his art, the now 13 year old girl gets straight A's, and his year old son is as happy as he could be. Do they try to convert me? No. If I had children would they purposefully try and converting them? No, but if my child asked they would answer the child's questions, just like I would theirs. They made it known what their beliefs are and if I ever would like to go that way that they were there for me. They have been respectful, kind, and wonderful people.

I also know Christians who see me wearing symbols of my faith and they judge me and act cruelly at worst and rudely at best towards me. In all things there is a middle ground. I understand where the both of you are coming from, I understand why Abracadabra feels the way he feels, and I understand why someone like Calmreflect would aggravate and set Abracadabra off. Calmreflect has been a poor example of a respectful Christian because Calmreflect hasn't shown us any respect for our religion, and I agree with Abracadabra that that's rude, and I also feel very protective of this community. I also agree with Pandora that things can go from a theological debate with respectful grace to a heated, one side is right the other is wrong rant.

Balance in all, balance between the Lord and the Lady, and may they balance our emotions so our emotions don't take us over and make us into those we would not wish to be!

[Nevah]

I agree with jdwoodschild... very wise words. There is nothing else I can think to add.

[Abracadabra]

Seems to suggest that you categorize "followers of Christianity" into two distinct groups: the brainwashed sheeple who don't really know anything about the religion they claim to follow, and bible literalists who believe in following their holy writ precisely and taking every word as fact (and then expecting everyone else to do the same).

You don't seem to allow for any middle ground (for example, Christians who have put a great deal of thought into their faith - and who probably do not view the bible literally, as not all Christians do you know - and who feel a deep spiritual connection and fulfillment through their faith, and who also understand that other people may find their own spiritual fulfillment through another path. You know, the people I mentioned in my last post).

Furthermore, you only seem to cound the latter group (the fundamental bible literalists) as actual Christians, which seems odd considering that you yourself stated that the flavor of Christianity subscribed to by those individuals has very little to do with Christ.

I have other things that I think I want to say (not totally decided), but I'll leave you with that for now.

You're right Pandora, Christianity itself is a very confused religion.

There are many different ways to define what it means to be "Christian".

As you suggest, a person can simply describe it as "A follower of Christ".

However, traditionally that is not how the religion is defined. Traditionally it also requires a total belief that the Old Testament is the "Word of God".

After all, without a belief in the Old Testament, the very notion that Jesus was "The Christ" is a meaningless notion.

Therefore, it's basically meaningless to claim to be a "Follower of Christ" without having accepted the very idea that Jesus was the prophesied messiah of the Old Testament, he was miraculously born of a virgin, and ultimately rose from his death.

All of those things go far beyond being a mere "Follower of Christ".

So many of the "New Age" definitions of "Christianity" don't even seem to recognize the importance of the underlying doctrine.

Moreover, take a way a "literal" interpretation of the Bible and is there anything truly left worthy of consideration? Perhaps from a purely philosophical stance there could be, but from the POV of this being the history of God's interaction with humanity a looking at things as mere metaphors and parables quickly loses any meaning.

After all, if we're not going to take things "literally" then why believe that Jesus was born of a virgin? That too can be taken as a mere metaphor. What about raising from his death? Again just a metaphor?

Once a strict literal interpretation is relaxed the whole religion falls apart.

Did this God truly speak from a cloud to a crowd saying, "This is my beloved son in whom I'm well-pleased, hear him"?

Or was that just a metaphor?

Did Jesus truly case actual demons out of Mary Magdalene? Or was that just a metaphor for having simply helped her to break some bad habits and vices that she may have had?

Once a loose metaphorical interpretation is permitted the whole thing quickly falls apart.

Having said that, I will agree with you that this is indeed the path that "New Age" Christianity is taking in terms of the bulk of the masses who still consider themselves to be "Christians". They are doing their very best to try to interpret the Bible in ways that are truly vague and loosely defined.

And they really half to do this. Because the Old Testament taken literally actually supports male-chauvinistic behaviors like the Taliban, etc.

Modern day Christians truly would like to remove themselves from any affiliation with the Old Testament God as much as possible. There's no doubt about that.

But let's face it, the very claim that Jesus was "The Christ" (the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham) basically requires a belief that the Old Testament has literal validity. Otherwise there would be no support for the very idea that Jesus could be "The Christ".

So "Christianity" (as a Hebew doctrine) has these kinds of oxymorons built right into it. They are inescapable.

~~~~

I mean where's the line?

Could I claim to be a "Christian" simply because I agree with the moral teachings of Jesus (even thought I think he was probably a mortal man, a Jewish Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva).

But then Jesus wouldn't be "The Christ"! So does would it make any sense to claim to be a "Christian" just because a person agrees with the moral values associated with Jesus?

I don't think so. The whole idea of Christianity is based on a belief that Jesus was the Christ.

That's really what it means to be a "Christian" ultimately. It means that the person believes that Jesus was "The Christ".

Being a mere "Follower of Jesus" does not make a person a "Christian".

Jesus could have been a mortal man and people could still "follow" his teachings. That wouldn't make them a "Christian".

To be a "Christian" requires believing that Jesus was "The Christ", and that requires a belief in the God of Abraham and basically a literal acceptance of the Old Testament story (not merely a metaphorical acceptance of them). There has to be a reason for the Christ, and there needs to be meaning to the idea that the Christ was indeed the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham sent to pay for the sins of man.

Metaphors do not support, or equate to, a virgin-born "Christ" who could be the sacrificial lamb of God.

Only a literal interpretations can lead to that sort of conclusion.

It has to be taken literally to be held up for what it claims to be. That's the only way it can truly work. Reduce it to metaphors and Jesus himself becomes nothing more than a metaphor.

[solveiggermany]

To be a "Christian" requires believing that Jesus was "The Christ", and that requires a belief in the God of Abraham and basically a literal acceptance of the Old Testament story (not merely a metaphorical acceptance of them). There has to be a reason for the Christ, and there needs to be meaning to the idea that the Christ was indeed the sacrificial lamb of the God of Abraham sent to pay for the sins of man.

Metaphors do not support, or equate to, a virgin-born "Christ" who could be the sacrificial lamb of God.

Only a literal interpretations can lead to that sort of conclusion.

It has to be taken literally to be held up for what it claims to be. That's the only way it can truly work. Reduce it to metaphors and Jesus himself becomes nothing more than a metaphor.

Hello,

I have to chime in on that.

If you say, that the bible can only be taken literally because in a metaphorical sense most of it contents make no sense I wonder how you think about other mystics?

Do you say that one has to take the stories/myths about how f.e. Odin came to live and shaped the earth can only be taken literally, too, and not as a metaphor?

The cow audhumbla licked Odin's grandfather Buri from the ice, Buri became a son named Borr who married Bestla who gave birth to Odin, Vili and Vé.

Shaping the earth from the bones of ice-giant Ymir can only be taken literally or would you say that the earth is indeed made from the bones of a giant? Same about a cow licking a man out of the ice. Both stories makes only sense when taken as a metaphor and not literally.

[Abracadabra]

Hello,

I have to chime in on that.

If you say, that the bible can only be taken literally because in a metaphorical sense most of it contents make no sense I wonder how you think about other mystics?

Do you say that one has to take the stories/myths about how f.e. Odin came to live and shaped the earth can only be taken literally, too, and not as a metaphor?

The cow audhumbla licked Odin's grandfather Buri from the ice, Buri became a son named Borr who married Bestla who gave birth to Odin, Vili and Vé.

Shaping the earth from the bones of ice-giant Ymir can only be taken literally or would you say that the earth is indeed made from the bones of a giant? Same about a cow licking a man out of the ice. Both stories makes only sense when taken as a metaphor and not literally.

First off, when comparing the Abrahamic religions with "Mystical" religions, there is no comparison at all.

The Abrahamic religions claim that "God said this, and God said that", and "God did this, and God did that". And so on. They are proclaiming that these texts are both a direct account of the actions of this God, as well as the commandments and directives of this God.

True "mystical" religions never make any such claims. In fact, this is precisely why they are called "Mysticism". They are a mystery. They don't claim to have direct accounts of specific interventions and directives from any "Gods".

Having said that, I see that you have referred above to other religions and Gods that do make specific claims about the history and directives of "Gods". This would also be true of the Greek Gods of Zeus, Apollo, Athena, Poseidon, etc.

Anytime you have a doctrine that claims to be the "Word of God", it's going to be highly problematic to try to reduce that doctrine down to mere metaphors whilst simultaneously holding up that it's a precise and exact account of what actually happened, and what the God actually "said".

For example, in the New Testament, the authors claim that God spoke from a cloud to the masses when Jesus was baptized by John saying, "This is my beloved son in whom I'm well-pleased, hear him".

So did God actually do this? Or was this just a metaphor?

If it was the latter than basically it was just a lie and it never happened.

Did God do this or didn't he?

Was Jesus born of a virgin, or wasn't he?

Did Jesus raise from the dead, or was that just a metaphor too?

The problem with this kind of religion is that when people start calling things mere metaphors it becomes a Salad Bar Religion. Take what you'd like to be literal, and leave the rest as a mere metaphors.

~~~~

This is especially true if the religion is going to be proselytized and evangelized. You can hardly claim that people need to accept Jesus as their Savior whist simultaneously holding out that the whole thing is just a metaphor.

People could just brush that off quite easily replying to the evangelists, "Sure, no problem. I metaphorically accept Jesus as my savior. Happy now?".

No, that would not make a proselytizer or evangelist happy at all. You need to accept this whole thing quite literally. Jesus IS God, and he IS the only way to salvation, and he DOES offer eternal life, etc, etc, etc. And more importantly the Bible is indeed the "Word of God"!

Reducing the whole thing to mere metaphors simply won't work for proselytizers and evangelists. For them it absolutely has to be the verbatim truth, otherwise, which parts are true and which parts are just metaphors?

Is heaven and hell just a metaphor too?

Is Satan just a metaphor?

Is the gift of eternal life just a metaphor?

Where do the metaphors stop and where does a literal reality begin?

~~~~

Mysticism means mystery.

Truly mystical religions are entirely based on faith and often entirely on intuitive faith, no literal doctrines required.

So, IMHO, it's actually a mistake to take mystical religions too literally. They actually lose their meaning if taken too literally.

But religions that claim to be based on the "Word of God" written in a very specific doctrine, truly have no choice but to demand a literal approach.

After all, their "faith" is based entirely on the literature (i.e. they place their faith in the literal claims being made in the doctrine.)

Christianity is truly a belief in the "Holy Scriptures".

It's innately a literal-based religion. There's simply no way to get around that. Take away the Bible and there is no such thing as "Christianity".

[sleeplessghost]

Calmreflect, please pay attention. There is a discussion about the Christian religion going on here. Points and counter points are being made in a generaly freindly tone. There is no condecention that I can see from the participants.

[lostkeyintro]

What if what calls to me is Twinkies? What if i worship twinks and get spiritual guidance from them? Would that be alright? :circle:

[DarkRoses99]

What if what calls to me is Twinkies? What if i worship twinks and get spiritual guidance from them? Would that be alright? :circle:

I say yes. It may sound silly but your path is your own. Others may not understand it but if it helps you gain spiritual guidance and helps you to feel whole then go for it. If you do start a twinkie path please dont proselytize here lol :yay:

[Alexandria]

What if what calls to me is Twinkies? What if i worship twinks and get spiritual guidance from them? Would that be alright?

Honestly? I'll never understand why so many people get worked up over the beliefs of another person. I don't really see why I should care what someone else believes in, unless they're having a legitimate negative impact on myself or someone else because of their beliefs.

You want to worship the almighty twinkie? Knock yourself out. Why should I care? How does it affect me in any real way? Unless you're going to be preaching at my window at 5am, or making laws that say I need to eat only twinkies for breakfast, or whatever else... your business, your beliefs... none of my business. I'll leave you to your beliefs, you leave me to mine. Fair deal, right?

(Alright, and let's be frank. I might not oppose twinkie breakfast law, so... yeah.)

[lostkeyintro]

Honestly? I'll never understand why so many people get worked up over the beliefs of another person. I don't really see why I should care what someone else believes in, unless they're having a legitimate negative impact on myself or someone else because of their beliefs.

You want to worship the almighty twinkie? Knock yourself out. Why should I care? How does it affect me in any real way? Unless you're going to be preaching at my window at 5am, or making laws that say I need to eat only twinkies for breakfast, or whatever else... your business, your beliefs... none of my business. I'll leave you to your beliefs, you leave me to mine. Fair deal, right?

(Alright, and let's be frank. I might not oppose twinkie breakfast law, so... yeah.)


I don't care what anyone else does, they want to call an apple a lemon that's on them.

[Mab]

I don't like basketball, or baseball, for that matter, I don't like most sports. BUT, I don't knock those people who do. So I'm not a sports enthusiast - does that make me a bad person? Well, I don't care what faith anyone follows - to each his own - just be true to yourself... Mab

[Lunacie]

I don't care what anyone else does, they want to call an apple a lemon that's on them.

If you wanted to buy an apple and I handed you a lemon, would that be just fine with you? Names are supposed to make communication easier so we don't have to spend ten minutes explaining something that the other person can understand with just one word or phrase. Calling something by a name that means something completely different makes communication waaaay more difficult.

[ElderPendragon]

Here is my 2 cents so to say..

Christianity if you look deeper and farther past the so called bible..You can find the truth. The so called great flood did happen but not by the so called Noah but of a different name. I have a book saying his name but cannot find it as of now but the whole story is written on a stone tablet. The old testament is of old folk tales I believe that was just put into well one book.

Christianity is a man made man ran religion. Lent (Giving up meat) for instance was actually created to help the fishing industry but the Church decided to say its what Jesus was doing since his apostles were fisherman.

The new testament in itself was started years after the death. None are the words of Jesus bet yet of the apostles. If that is such the case than by gone it, he himself would know what and how the religion would be ran even to this day. Why not right his own part in it so it cannot be taken out of context.

The so called 10 deadly plagues of Egypt
1)the volcanic ash that is found in that area can cause the water to turn blood red and undrinkable also killing fish
2)Thus causing the frogs to leave the water
3-4)The frogs leaving attracted more instects and the frogs did not keep this in check
5-6)Biting flies that can transmit livestock disease
7)The fiery hail was produced by the volcanic activity which does not just cause the ash but also at times a fiery hail
8)The hail in then turned out to guess what destroy the crops which would then be targeted by the locusts
9)The darkness once again volcanic activity
10)First born were given first priority of the food that had spoiled and infected by the black mold and disease not known at the time the Israelites were said to prepare their foods and eat it faster than the Egyptians thus making the Israelites food less likely to be contaminated.


I can go on where things are said to debunked of the bible.


I watched just recently a documentary if you can call it that said that dinosaurs are no older than man. They explained this on that the Earth is old but that the minerals had settled into the bones giving it older than should explanation. They say the Earth in itself is only six thousand years old. Life is about two thousand.