so I went on a christian forum...

[Silverm00n]

just to see what it says about paganism/wica. Oh man did my head spin! lol, I got a little upset there for a second! It was very shocking to read so much misinformation and hatred about those who practice wicca/paganism/and anything other than christianity. Quite appalling I must say. I don't want to dog the religion, but I don't understand how they justify such harsh treatment toward other people. It was interesting, though, to see that there were quite a few people who started threads sincerely interested in the religion. But then got many harsh responses for it. On the brighter side, there are some wiccans/pagans on the forum that respond to those threads trying to shed some light on their misconceptions.

I can understand that people have a fear of the unknown, but what I can't understand is why a persons personal choice angers another of different beliefs so much. I mean, I don't care that you believe in the devil or demons or hell, why does it piss you off that I believe in reincarnation, the summerland, or various deity? I don't think we have any christians on this board, but it would be interesting to hear their perspective. Only if it's not nasty like the board I just came from! :p

[TigersEyeAm]

I knew about the misconceptions since I was very young... I wrote an essay in college back when I was a freshman at Post University about just that and my parents views on Wicca. Christian leaders forced Pagan's/Wiccan's into hidding because if anyone was caught practicing the craft they would be killed. If I remember right there were religious based wars to force people to convert to Catholicism. I just don't know how so many people can follow a religion that caused so much pain and suffering to people in the beginning. I recommend people to read Sabbats by Edain McCoy and The Wiccan Rede by Mark Ventimiglia. In the Samhain section of Sabbats, which I believe is the very first chapter, Edain talks a little about Pagan's/Wiccan's having to practice in hiding and how Christian's formed the devil to scare people away from Wicca (The devil was described exactly as the horned god is depicted) and tried their hardest to turn Samhain into Michaelmas (One Saint wasn't strong enough to take down Samhain so it then turned to...) then All Saints Day or All Hallows Eve, but the original tradition was still too hard to defeat so they told people that if they went out on All Hallows Eve, evil spirits roamed the earth which inturn brought chaos and mischievious individuals to ruin Halloween because of the "bad ass" image they would recieve from this very night. In The Wiccan Rede, although I don't agree with some aspects of this book, Mark explains alot of Catholicism vs. Paganism/Wicca. It's pretty interesting.... but very scary, frustrating, and sad. Some people just don't get it and crave power.... Not that I am trying to throw Catholicism under the bus... I respect everyone's religious opinions as long as it doesn't direct any disrespect upon my beliefs... That's why I love Wicca so much... You can create your own path and follow your heart instead of following someone elses... Just my opinion... A former co-worker of mine is Christian and dispises Halloween. Her church holds seminars on what Halloween is supposed to mean... I was very angry, hurt, and felt very disrespected when she brought in a paper that was handed out in one of these seminars.... They brain washed people to think that Halloween is for the devil and witchcraft (in a negative manner) and that they will be holding activities (pretty much like a lock in that high schools do for grad nights, etc.) at the church on Halloween to keep there children off of the streets and basically told them that if they celebrated Halloween they would be celebrating the devil (which is pretty funny seeing that we don't believe in the devil what so ever!! People fear what they do not know!! Idiots.... man this topic gets me fired up:complain: ). I've always respected this former co-worker of mine until that day... She really hurt my feelings when she tried to tell me that halloween was evil... But like I said, if you read Sabbats by Edain McCoy... You will see where this idea came from.

[Silverm00n]

Couldn't agree with you more Tiger! Personally, after all the comments I read on that forum regarding the craft, christianity and other book religions, seem to me more of a dictatorship than a religion. I can't imagine being given a book and being told that it the word. Never to questions how the book came about, and why it was changed so much. The old and new testament have two different attitudes in my opinion, when speaking of god. Everything was "the devils work." From reiki to divination. Honestly, I didn't think it was still this bad. Maybe it is better if our religion stays in the broom closet. I certainly wouldn't want people like that getting their hands on that which is sacred to us. Just don't understand the hostility!

Also there was talk on there that jesus in god? I don't know all the aspects of the religion, because when I practiced it was more pagan than christian anyway, and certainly only viewed jesus as a prophet, and born of royalty, not a god. I thought they viewed jesus as gods son, that came down and was crusified for their sins, to save them. Hmmmm.....?

[TigersEyeAm]

Well, I don't think keeping our religion in the broom closet is the best idea to change the worlds perspective of Wicca. To be honest, I only tell people that I know aren't judgemental and are willing to know exactly what it is that I practice. One of my good friends always tells me that if people know who I am personally and I told them what I believed, she couldn't see them getting afraid but more intereged because I'm such a sweet person and would be surprised if people thought that I was evil or something because that isn't what I put myself out to be. A good advocate is someone who believes in there religion or whatever it may be and puts it out to the public positively. Me personally, I still haven't come completely out because I'm not ready to have to explain myself and try to think up the best way to explain was I practice and how it is far from being a bad thing. For instance, I own an American Pit Bull Terrier, only some people know right now because of the negative publicity they have gotten in the past. But, you better believe when I do come out that she is a Pit, I'll come out with a bang and I'll have a lot of people who will say that they've been touched by an APBT in their lives and they wouldn't think of any better dog.

[Silverm00n]

I hear what your saying, but how much info do some of the people who critisize and judge really need to know? Our core beliefs are out there, there's plenty of info if they wanted to get a general idea. Granted not everything may be correct, and there are many different views, but you can't get everyone to be tolerant it. Honestly, of those that know what I am, if they genuinely want to know some basic info, I'm happy to inform them. However, if I feel like I'm being set up to be mocked, or if that is the direction that the other tries to take it, I will not speak of it again. The debates are endless as to if magic really works, demons, devils, deities, the moon. Obviously there are many people who do not feel for our spiritual path, the way we do, and many even hate us.

It's really a tricky subject, because in one aspect a lot has to do with misconception and bullcrap. On the other hand, we are interpreted as evil poisoners in the bible, so I think that basically to those who recognize it as gospel, is not going to change their views no matter what you say or how nice you are. You're still basically, to them, doing the work of the devil. I don't know how releasing more info out there would bring our religion into a better light. Let's face it, there are practices that if some people saw, would either laugh, or freak out. Look at the roots of paganism. There was generally only a handful of people in towns that practiced the craft. They were sought out by town folks to aid them. Herbalists, healers, whatever. Then we were persecuted for practicing once christianity became mainstream. It was never a religion that was open to the public. And I don't think that should change. I realize that for many, if the craft was inaccessible they might not have found it. On the other hand I think that no matter what info you don't have, what you feel in your heart would have brought you there anyway.

On that forum, I read a lot of comments about how we don't have a book or a leader. And I think, that's the best part about it. We don't have a book that tells us what to believe. We create our own, based on our calling and spirtuality. Yes there are lots of books out there on the craft, but nothing of real depth. At least nothing that I've read, and that's a whole lot. I think it sucks that wicca gets picked up by angry teens trying to scare or piss their parents off. Just add fuel to the fire. I don't think our ancestors would be too pleased, then again I haven't asked :p .

Maybe I'm not there yet, or I'm biased, but there's enough already out there that if someone wants to know first hand what wicca or paganism is about, they can easily find it. But I will not defend my beliefs over and over or be prompted to explain myself. It's nobodies business, and I think that if people kept their religious beliefs more private, we wouldn't have so much violence around. :complain:

Ok, getting off my soap box!:jawdrop:

[TigersEyeAm]

This is definitely a heated topic and I am strangely comforted by it because I now know that I am not the only one out there that feels this way. I would never in a million years tell someone to go public with there religious beliefs unless they are comfortable and willing to take the good with the bad. That is why I only have told my close friends about it. Luckly, my friends are very accepting people and want to learn more about what I practice, just to have a little insight because I grip their imaginations with it. Some people out there aren't that lucky though and I could see why these people wouldn't be so open. My only concern is, how can you help people if they don't know what you are? For instance, my tigerseye story with my fiance. I cleansed this stone and gave it to him to protect him in a very dangerous enviroment and it worked! I like to help people and will do what I can for them if they let me :). I don't think that there is any right or wrong on this topic, wether you keep your religious beliefs to yourself or you share it with your loved ones is your decision and no one can tell you otherwise. Follow your heart, it will never lie to you. :witch_prv: and believe it or not.... Paganism was very main stream a very long time ago... from which I have read.

[Silverm00n]

For those that genuinely want to know about it, absolutely! But for those that DO want to know, but for all the wrong reasons, then no. I think that no matter what protective item you would give them, it wouldn't work because they don't believe. Your fiance later confessed that he genuinly wanted to believe that the stone would work, and so it did.

When was paganism mainstream? Are you thinking of wicca?

[wiccan_medic]

I too have experience some...i won't say hatred, but it was close to it, by some friends of mine when they found out that I was Pagan. I actually am no longer in contact with a really good friend of mine because his wife is a catholic, and she banned me from their house, and he agreed with her. It was really quite upsetting and it really bothered me.

[Tay]

I understand the hurt this topic brings to some people. Recently my 9 year old cousin came to stay one weekend. It has been the hardest weekend of my life because she is a christian. Everything I have was "gross or wrong because dad doesnt like that" and "Halloween is bad". The worst thing was she thought she saw a picture of 2 females kissing, she said "thats bad" and I said "whats bad?" she said "2 girls" then made a gesture with her fingures by touching her 2 pointer fingers together. This was really offensive and hurtful for me because im bisexual and she was at my house, in my room telling me that it was wrong. The worst thing is, she is 9 years old and she is sexist. Its sad because she is a sweet girl.
I asked her "would you ever dye your hair" she said "no" then I asked "If you could, would you dye your hair" she then said "yes, Id dye it black" She has her own oppinion, its just asking her a different way. Another story she told me which was disturbing, she said one of her friends always slept with the light on, when I asked her why she said because her friend was scared that Satan the devil would get her. Her friend is also 9 years old. Its very upsetting because her religeon was forced upon her, she had no choice in choosing whether to follow chrisitanity or not. It really makes me so angry. Fair enough they have their religeon and their beleifs, but why look down on other peoples religeon? Is so wrong.

[Silverm00n]

Like they say: People fear what they don't understand. It's important to make sure that you're always patient with these people and not feed into their bantering. I try to answer questions for those that have any, and show them the similarities between the beliefs and practices. With the others that are not as nice, just ask them if the bible doesn't state anything about "loving they neighbor?" I think the God in the new testament does not condone cruelty lol!

[Squiver]

I understand that this is an extremely touchy subject, and one of the things that originally drew me to Wicca was the lack of emphasis on converting, and spreading the religion. I'll begin with, of course, this story:
My first introduction to Protestantism was thanks to a friend, who firmly believed that I was "depressed and needed Jesus in my life". The sentiment was very kind, and I thank him for it, but week after week, every Monday I would be dragged off to one of the most neo-conservative, fundamentalist Born-Again churches in the county. There they would spew heinous, misinformed, and generally unintelligent opinions and information. I recall very strongly one day, a pledge that all of the teenagers in the group (some as young as 13) were supposed to take: That we were to never date anyone outside of their own faith because their sinfulness would drag them to Hell. Another time I recall each group of 5 kids making a list of the top 10 things they believed to be wrong in the world. There were no guidelines, it could literally be anything (war, famine, disease, all viable choices). But the average of the class voted almost unanimously as these being the top three issues wrong with the world, and I am speaking burbadem; "1) Abortion 2) Gay Marriage 3) Middle Eastern People". Yes, yes, they hated Halloween, Wicca, Jews and the like.
As you can imagine, my stay in this youth group turned me to the most bitter opinion of the faith, and every day I fought the urge to stand up and tear everything they believed in and more. I came, as many do, to the conclusion that Christianity was a vile religion intended for the unintelligent and the wicked, and it is certainly true that if I had left on that note, and continued to receive information based on the opinions of other like-minded people, my opinion would have forever been of uncomfortable hate.
But I think it is important to mention this:
When I started dating my current fiancee, he made it very clear from the beginning that he was a Christian. I was of course wary of this at first but I loved him, so I was willing to accept it, still blinded by the same sort of narrow-minded hatred that many Christians exhibit toward Wiccans/Pagans. One day, my boyfriend asked me to accompany him and his family to church. After several days of begging I finally agreed.
Upon entering the church I was shocked. The "prayer room" was stocked to the brim with rainbows, gay rights paraphinalia, trinkets and treasures from all over the world, of every religion and indigenous culture. The biggest shock came from seeing the pastor, who turned out to be a small, bubbly, blonde-haired woman, adorned with white clothes (put on over, as I found later, a poke-dotted dress), and drapings around her neck of tye-dye, and loosely splattered colorful handprints of children.
The pastor's sermon was not about damnation, Hell, or even in many respects, God, but rather of love, the beauty of nature, and service to your fellow man (not just Christian men, either). Her favorite portion of the sermon was reading aloud The Giving Tree and relating it to "God's" love manifest in us, and how we can help one another. After mass had ended, everyone was asked by the pastor to take a few minutes to bundle survival essential kits to be sent to children in Africa, that the church had, earlier that year, raised money for.
I suppose my point is, there will always be hatred for that which we may have been brought up to resent, or "fear of the unknown" as everyone has been saying, but of course there will be hatred for everything if you go looking for hatred; I guarantee you, a Christian forum will draw in the best, and most loudly, the worst of them, just as you might find in a larger Pagan community in the opposite direction. It's just important to be understanding of the individual, and not stereotype the community. I will never tell my fiancee's father that I'm a Wiccan, because I know he will never understand nor accept me, not as an icon of the Christian faith, but as a stubborn individual raised by a stubborn pastor out West. Don't take your information of a faith from the internet, or from an isolated slice of crazy you come across, but from many of your own experiences.

[Mahershalalwis]

Upon entering the church I was shocked. The "prayer room" was stocked to the brim with rainbows, gay rights paraphinalia, trinkets and treasures from all over the world, of every religion and indigenous culture. The biggest shock came from seeing the pastor, who turned out to be a small, bubbly, blonde-haired woman, adorned with white clothes (put on over, as I found later, a poke-dotted dress), and drapings around her neck of tye-dye, and loosely splattered colorful handprints of children.
The pastor's sermon was not about damnation, Hell, or even in many respects, God, but rather of love, the beauty of nature, and service to your fellow man (not just Christian men, either). Her favorite portion of the sermon was reading aloud The Giving Tree and relating it to "God's" love manifest in us, and how we can help one another. After mass had ended, everyone was asked by the pastor to take a few minutes to bundle survival essential kits to be sent to children in Africa, that the church had, earlier that year, raised money for.



I think this pastor and church really embodied the true spirit of Christianity: serving, helping one another. loving. A lot of people missed that point. I was driven away from it myself by people who refused to help me in my greatest time of need, really being hypocrites. Its all about how they live their own gospel, not about their fellow man. I think that really sealed the deal for me, my own experiences. I've tried to learn from that and tried to create a safe, inclusive environment where I live for all Pagans to come and practice their spirituality and magical faiths. I used to be so conservative like them. Oh Silver, I have friends that believe Christ is the God who came down and became the son. Its really confusing and contradictory that God was doing three roles at once, I mean the man can really throw his voice, since he was talking from heaven, talking on the cross, and moving around int he form of a dove on occasion. I think a basic foundation, just like in any religion, creates a good upright person, but when you starting getting off into real deep doctrines and sects of what a person thinks, then you get extremist. And they are in each religion, not just Islam... Christianity though has taught me to be open and objective about everything, especially religion, after coming from such a strict religion such as Mormonism to Paganism, its like flying free as a bird. I often try to break down the barriers people have. Example: My mother thinks wicca is of the devil (no surprise) but I ask "Why, what's wrong with? So what if its of the devil ( I corrected her), what would be wrong with worshiping the devil? What's wrong with Evil? What's wrong with cursing?...." and so on. I followed the logic with her, and the basic point, from her point of view that we are devil worshipers, is that it creates anarchy, chaos and a world where people can't be productive, prosper and so on. I really had to correct her misinformation, but this is the kind of objectivity I try to have to create that safe and inclusive environment, so not to have bias!

:hippy: :circle:

[Mab]

I have to agree on some points and disagree with others. If we didn't believe in something, it would start feeling empy and like something is missing. But some of the beliefs such as the Christian God being the trinity is probably the hardest thing I've had to grasp. When I was a kid I remember reading bible that actually had another women names in it other than Eve. Also, the fighting that ensued in the old testament when we're supposed to turn the other cheek. These are just a few that make it difficult to believe. But I have the same thing with the Wiccan beginning that first there was nothing and then there was the Goddess and she wanted to feel things so therefore she had to make humans to experience things through. And that is how all the planes of existence started and we must raise up to our higher self. There's the Koran that seems to have been written way after the bible and like they took out parts of the bible and didn't put them in any particular oder. If you notice, all mankind through the years has always believed in a person to be the "One" except he was human be it Jesus, Mohammed, Budha or whomever. This is my opinion and I will not be offended by anyone whose opinion differs from mine, because if we were all the same, what a boring world it would be and we wouldn't have such a good forum for discussion... Mab

[Mahershalalwis]

No I think its a good opinion. There are good things you can get from all those books I think, like don't lie, cheat steal and so on, but the God of the Old testament is way different from his new side he shows in the New Testament. Its crazy how much killing, murder, blood, rape, and so when on in those old days, and it was deemed ok because if it was in the name of God... oh wait, we're still dealing with that sort of thing in our Modern Age. I much prefer the Goddess. its simple, you come here and exist, figure out what you're supposed to do in life and then go back to her and wait to come again. At least that's why I believe. And you're right Mab, there was another woman, Eve was the more obedient woman and became the second wife. Crazy, I've often wanted to travel back and time and see what really happened!

:uzi:

[Mab]

Okay, so do you remember her name? Anyway, I wish I could find one of those old bibles and read that again just to see how they tell about her existence. It's hard to find old bibles, but I have found many new ones and different translations but they don't mention the first Eve... Mab

[Mahershalalwis]

Yeah oddly enough her name was Lilith, and she was quite famous in the Middle Ages. Lots of texts and paintings of her. She's found in a few texts, like the Babylonian Talmud, which in print, is 22 volumes you can only find at Christian Book Distributer. The whole set is really hard to come by and is really expensive. Here's a wiki of her. I have the set in my cart on their website, trying to collect the $400.00 to buy it. It would be an invaluable resource though, since the BT is the source of basically everything in Jewish history, lore, and belief for the last almost 4,000 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

:pixie1:

[Mab]

Thank you, Maher. I didn't remember her name, but I remembered her being mentioned as Adam's first wife. I also thought they had children and then God created Eve because Lilith mated with an angel and had babies with wings. I just don't remember for sure, but thanks for the history look up, brings back thoughts again when I was a "youngling" and doubted the Christian word. I remember so many things that made it so confusing to believe and I still feel that way.

[Mahershalalwis]

I know, if you really look at whats been changed and left out of the books, its amazing they still use it! Its like only using half the alphabet and calling it all we need to form our words and grammar. There is so much more out there. Kind of sad really. She did WHAT!! :spitwater: I would have loved a set of wings, I've always wanted to fly :tantrum:

:pixie1:

[Gwenyfur]

it's interesting talking with and mingling with christians.

yes...they can be a severely closed minded bunch...and it seems beyond their ken to even consider a belief system that doesn't believe their god is supreme and the only god...they can't understand the lack of belief in hell or satan...

As for as what christians believe...the Nicene Creed (http://www.goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/creed) is about the best summation of the main points...

amazing the ways they have of deluding themselves...

[Mab]

The sad part is, as a kid and well into my more mature years (I don't plan to grow up), anyway, I believed in all that about hell fire and damnation and never even thought of reading and researching other religions to find out what they are all about and who the people were that believed in them. That's the one thing I've been doing now, I've been reading about other religions and where most of them are practiced. I have accepted that there are people of different faiths, and guess what, they ain't bad people and I've become one of them. Who knew... Mab

[Gwenyfur]

Thank you, Maher. I didn't remember her name, but I remembered her being mentioned as Adam's first wife. I also thought they had children and then God created Eve because Lilith mated with an angel and had babies with wings. I just don't remember for sure, but thanks for the history look up, brings back thoughts again when I was a "youngling" and doubted the Christian word. I remember so many things that made it so confusing to believe and I still feel that way.

Actually the children of Lillith became the Nephilim...what Goliath of the Philistines was believed to be

[Mahershalalwis]

Actually the children of Lillith became the Nephilim...what Goliath of the Philistines was believed to be


Hm, do you know where I can find it in the good book? Or is there a book of genealogies that list generation by generation?
:geek:

[Gwenyfur]

Well...the Nephilim are referenced in Genesis as Giants...sons of god and daughters of men... Genesis 6

Lillith in an extrascriptural figure...but the KJV interpreters had to do away with a few things for political expediency...Witches and homosexuals...

Adam's first wife disappeared from the Scriptures about the same time the original Torah was being translated into Greek...a couple of centuries before the birth of Christ...She was removed and chalked off to a babylonian figure thus cementing the "purity" of marriage which the RCC grabbed onto...

Writings of Jocepheus, Enphalrian (sp?) and some of the early church fathers give more information on lillith,...even though the church now denies her existence.